Talk:Tom Riddle Senior

Name

Wouldn't he be a Tom Riddle Jr. if his father had the same name and his son (Tom Marvolo Riddle),has a different middle name? Thai420 15:29, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

date of Death

Tom Riddle Sr. death was in 1943, is it not? In the death section I put it as 1943, but was changed to 1941, why? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ratneer (talk • contribs).

Also, his grave reads 1905-1943. And his age at the time of death is 38, but couldn't it also be 37, depending on when his birthday was? MUDBL00D 11:25, May 4, 2011 (UTC)

IT WAS IN 1944

Tom Riddle, Sr. died in 1944, not 1943. The book canon comes first to the movie canon. And in Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, it reads "Half a century ago, something strange had happened there..." and "Fifty years before, at daybreak, on a fine summer's morning.... a maid had entered the drawing room to find all three Riddles dead." The present is August 1994. Thus Tom Riddle, Sr. and his parents were killed in 1944, not 1943.

Also, in the Harry Potter Companion book, it says that they died in July/August 1944.

http://books.google.com/books?id=K5zOroHn_LYC&pg=PA421&lpg=PA421&dq=Tom+Riddle,+Sr.+died+1944&source=bl&ots=4sV-q6lcv6&sig=lIfgLZJ83mJ40ZGPDfUHv5rWxf8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wNQFUKuVJMq8rQHG2uXECA&ved=0CFEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Tom%20Riddle%2C%20Sr.%20died%201944&f=false

You make a valid point about Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. However, in Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (which takes place from 1992-1993) it is also stated the events of Voldemort's time took place fifty years earlier, and the Diary Horcrux states it is the preservation of Voldemort's sixteen-year old self. In Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, Dumbledore states that Voldemort murdered the Riddles in the summer when he was sixteen years old, which would support the 1943 death date. As for the Harry Potter Companion book, it is an unofficial guidebook and cannot be taken as canononical. - Nick O'Demus 21:57, July 17, 2012 (UTC)

Loyalty section update

Shouldn't the Gaunt family be removed from his loyalty section? Riddle Sr. wasn't loyal to them at all and abandoned his only tie to them, Merope. 131.151.69.250 18:00, June 23, 2013 (UTC)

Widowed?

Is it accurate for his marital status to be "widowed" - considering that he was deceived into marrying Merope (he was under the influence of the Love Potion)? I think he should actually be described as "single". He apparently never made a conscious choice to marry anyone. - UnicornWolf (talk) 14:28, January 31, 2015 (UTC)

I don't think it really matters how he married Merope, the simple fact is that he did marry her, and she died thereafter: a married man whose wife (or ex-wife) passes away is now known as widowed. --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 14:50, January 31, 2015 (UTC)

Shouldn´t it be devorced or seperated?--Rodolphus (talk) 15:57, January 31, 2015 (UTC)

No, Rodolphus. Divorce or separated, they couple MEAN it. If both the man and the woman don't what this marriage to continue on, then they separate, or divorce. But if one of them dies, then the other will be widowed.

Tom seperated from his wife before he died. Doesn´t this count?--Rodolphus (talk) 10:18, February 1, 2015 (UTC)

I don't think a legal divorce was ever implied, though. -- Saxon 14:00, February 1, 2015 (UTC)

Later used his death?

How can that be? Horcruxes can only be made shortly after somebody is murdered, don't they? Otherwise would it mean that the soul never heals together again,, which is wrong. --König Elessar I. (talk) 17:10, November 29, 2015 (UTC)

Victim-blaming

Riddle did not abandon Merope and her baby because he was date raped enslaved against his will. Laughing at a wizard wearing a ridilcous outfit and being called a snob doesn't make him comparable to Voldemort, who if anything, was more like his mother in mentality. Urg the Unclean (User talk:Urg the Unclean|talk) 23:44, August 5, 2017 (UTC)

I agree that this article needs an overhaul to be more mindful of the fact that Tom was sexually assaulted. The apparent victim-blaming tone is troubling and definitely needs to be addressed. But I think your edits are problematic in that they introduce inferences and assumptions that aren't supported by the text. We don't know whether love potions in the Potterverse strip agency to the point of an Imperius Curse. Thus, it's an overstep to describe Tom as Merope's "slave," because we don't know how much control she had over him. We also don't know whether Tom fled from her in "fear" or whether she was "deranged." There are ways that we can faithfully describe what we know happened to Tom from the text without making assumptions. ★ Starstuff ^{(Owl me!)} 04:36, August 6, 2017 (UTC)

We know the Love Potion Merope used was more powerful then the stuff used at Hogwarts and she made him have sex with her. Dumbledore also initially thought of the imperious curse, but the fact that he went to love potion does also suggest that Riddle's free will was compromised. I'd see fleeing because she was deranged would be the same. He just woke up only to find out he'd been effectively kidnapped, alienated from friends/family, and forced to have a child with some woman he had no interest in. Harry Potter's sight of Ogden does describe him stifling a giggle at the sight of his bizarre attempt at muggle clothing. We see RIddle is disgusted by Morfin snake nailing to the door and telling Cecilia not to look, showing he has humanity. I say this because the original article was basically saying the evil aspects of Voldemort came from Riddle.

Final note, outside of saying Marvolo had two kids, Riddle never mentioned Merope, all his disdain was directed at Marvolo and Morfin who are mentioned as widely hated for terrorizing the neighbor, animal cruelty, and other antisocial behavior. Given that Riddle was mentioned to often pass the shack on his walks, the class system at the time, and that the view of the mentally unhealthy in the 1920s, Riddle's disdain of the two is not exactly unwarranted. Urg the Unclean (User talk:Urg the Unclean|talk) 06:45, August 6, 2017 (UTC)

We don't know Riddle's specific thoughts concerning his leaving Merope, other than that, when she stopped drugging him with Love Potion, he came to his senses and wanted nothing to do with her. We don't know if he was afraid of her for what she'd done to him, or angry, or disgusted. We don't know if he felt ashamed and blamed himself for accepting that first potion-spiked drink from her. We should only describe what we know -- that Tom came to his senses and left her -- and avoid speculating on the thoughts and feelings he might have had at the time.

Chapter One of Goblet of Fire gives an unfavourable description of Tom: "Elderly Mr and Mrs Riddle had been rich, snobbish and rude, and their grown-up son, Tom, had been even more son." This is the narrative voice speaking rather than a specific character giving their personal opinion in dialogue. The flashback in Half-Blood Prince bears this description out, to a certain extent, in that it shows him to be somewhat prideful, snobbish, and callous. After all, he and Cecilia just laughed at Ogden, instead of trying to ask if the obviously distressed man was alright and needed help. Describing Tom's unfavourable characteristics doesn't detract from the wrongness of what he suffered.

Also, if you want to round out the section "Personality and traits" section by noting how he showed genuine affection and concern for Cecelia, that wouldn't be amiss. I blanket-reverted your edits not because all of them were problematic, but, rather, because it was easier for me to start from scratch and reintroduce things than to do it the other way around.

I don't see an issue with noting Tom's disfavour of Marvolo and Morfin was based on their behaviour. But I think we should avoid framing this in the context of "the class system at the time" and the "view of the mentally unhealthy in the 1920s" because this would be speculation. At least, in doesn't belong within the main body of the article, although it could be added as a "Behind the scenes" item.

There's also the issue that the Harry Potter series is targeted at younger readers. We try to keep this wiki PG-13, which, in general, means avoiding overt descriptions of sex where possible. It's why I prefer to avoid explicitly describing Tom as the victim of sexual assault within this and other articles. It's enough to state that Tom was forced to marry Merope by being drugged with Love Potion, and that Merope eventually became pregnant. Older readers can put two and two together. But a ten-year-old who reads this article won't have the concept of sexual violence dumped on them by a wiki about their favourite book series. ★ Starstuff ^{(Owl me!)} 08:12, August 6, 2017 (UTC)

Fair enough about the class system(I'll note it in the behind the scenes) and toning things down for younger readers.

I think the fact that immediately left and never came back, shows Riddle did not enjoy being ensared and wanted to forget the whole experience, even if its not stated, thats what his behavior says.

Keep in mind that had been after the incident with Merope, which realistically would affect a personality for the worse.

Laughing at Ogden is mildly unpleasant, but Ogden's attempt at muggle clothing were described as so silly even Harry struggled not to laugh seeing it and Riddle didn't know that Ogden was running from Morfin or was a wizard. This and Talking about the stuff he owns is egotistical, but not sociopathic behavior like Voldemort would later show, as the original article was suggesting.

We can use ensnared/bewitched instead of enslaved and such if things need to be softer for young readers of the wiki. Urg the Unclean (User talk:Urg the Unclean|talk) 20:16, August 6, 2017 (UTC)

This wiki page still has some amount of victim-blaming and that's not okay. It also portrays the relationship and Merope in a sympathetic light which is too biased for an objective page. I don't think this is okay at all. I have been pushed back while trying to simply unbias some of the language. I can sort of understand not saying that what happened was rape, but I cannot understand "he was not bothered to find out even about his child" or "tragic end" because that language suggests he had some obligation to stay with his rapist, and that's not okay. Someone, please change it so that it sounds less like a tragic love story and more like a depiction of magical abuse. Don't want to acknowledge it as rape? Fine. Have it that way. But if this page is written as if Merope is sympathetic for the abhorrent things she did to Tom, that's not okay and it needs to be changed.Jonnesty (talk) 18:13, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

World War 2

When I read Goblet of Fire at first the chapter about the murders of the Riddles, it led me to understand that they died after ww2 (it says Frank comes back from the war changed and all that), but later we find that they died in 1943, while the war as in full swing... So, why wasn't Tom Riddle Sr fighting in the war? All males that were 18 or older and as old as 51 were conscripted! Even Frank, who was more or less disabled would be still working, just not in combat! Do you guys think Rowling overlook the dates?

DiegoMSouza (talk) 04:37, October 25, 2018 (UTC)Diego

Romances in infobox

I'm not sure if Merope should be listed as a romance. He never had any romantic feelings for her. And the potion doesn't create love.--Rodolphus (talk) 11:19, December 15, 2019 (UTC)

Bumping.--Rodolphus (talk) 10:39, April 18, 2020 (UTC)

Bumping.--Rodolphus (talk) 15:56, June 18, 2020 (UTC)

Rape of Tom Riddle Sr.

This article does not acknowledge that he was raped. Having sex with someone while they are in an altered state of mind, is unequivocally rape, and to refuse to acknowledge that is extremely demeaning to victims of similar forms of rape in the real world. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jonnesty (talk • contribs) 07:01, 12 January 2021 (UTC).

It is a touchy subject; it hasn't been confirmed in an in-universe source to be rape; feel free to mention it in the 'Behind the scenes' section, though. -  MrSiriusBlack  Talk  12:55, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

I understand your concern, and although their relationship was magically coerced, writing that Riddle was raped by Gaunt is an unproven statement to make, and also considering that this wiki is family friendly, I would avoid writing such stuff (as it would likely shock most readers). I don't want to sound puritanical, but writing that there was rape involved, I think is very problematic to say the least, since Rowling never confirmed such a notion. RedWizard98 (talk) 15:26, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Another interesting point to acknowledge, is that it isn't confirmed if Merope used either a love potion or the Imperius Curse to bewitch Riddle into marrying her. The book seems to imply more that Merope used a love potion, since her obsession with Riddle was largely romantic in nature, as opposed to having a malicious desire to control him. RedWizard98 (talk) 15:35, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Having sex with someone while they are under the influence of something that alters their choices--and by the way, in real life that refers to drugs and alcohol, which have the same function as love potions--is completely rape, and repeatedly having sex with someone goes into date-rape. It doesn't matter whether something is acknowledged as rape by the author. She has stated that he was in an altered state of mind, and that Merope got pregnant, which means she had sex with him, as if forcing someone to marry someone else under an influence isn't already bad enough. To not acknowledge this as rape is very, very bad, and, as I have said, demeaning to victims of similar forms of rape, especially male victims because they are often ridiculed or even condemned by their society despite being victims. It is completely and utterly proven. Perhaps "rape" is a strong word to use, but "sexual assault" is a perfectly appropriate work to use. I'm sorry, but please stop reverting my edits; this was 100% rape and it's not okay to argue otherwise because it is provably rape; although British law is notorious for having close-minded definitions of rape, American law and common sense recognizes it that way. Simply put, it was highly traumatizing for Tom Riddle Sr., and he had sexual intercourse forced on him without his full consent. Hence, rape. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jonnesty (talk • contribs).

I understand your personal opinion, but I kind of think things have gotten quite off-topic here. It is less subjective to simply say she coerced him, rather than raped him, since her method of bewitchment used on Riddle is unclear, and quite simply the fact that it is never said in the series that it was rape. This website is also strictly about Harry Potter, not real life social issues, which are of course extremely important, but not discussed here. RedWizard98 (talk) 16:09, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

It's not my personal opinion, it's definition. Sexual intercourse upon someone without their explicit consent in an unaltered state of mind is, by definition, rape. A person has raped someone else if they had sex while one was drunk. A love potion is clearly much more powerful than just alcohol. Stop fighting me on this. If you think the word "rape" is too strong (although there is at least one other article on this wiki using it so... yeah) then fine, it can be just "sexual assault." But it is undoubtedly some form of assault, and I will recognize it as such. Also, the victim-blaming on the page is very, very inappropriate; Tom was a jerk, but a jerk getting raped is not his fault, nor is it somehow bad that he left behind the person who probably caused him lasting trauma and the child he may have never been able to care for because of that likely trauma. (And yes, I get that the idea of trauma wasn't specified, so obviously I won't say he suffered trauma. But he did, by definition, get raped. So stop trying to tell me what is fact is an opinion. It's not.). Jonnesty (talk) 16:46, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

As you thought it acceptable to remove my message above, I have reported you to administration. RedWizard98 (talk) 16:51, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Even if what Merope did was wrong to Tom Riddle, it is never said in the text that she raped him. That is all there is to it. Perhaps if she used the Imperius Curse (which is both coercive and malicious), then maybe that would make her a rapist, but the same cannot be clearly said for love potions (which she is more widely believed to have used). RedWizard98 (talk) 17:02, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Love potions have been a very debatable concept in the Harry Potter series for years. It was very widely available in the wizarding world. Characters like Romilda Vane and Molly Weasley have used one. Gilderoy Lockhart very publicly encouraged a whole school to think about getting one, and he didn't get into trouble. Hermione and Ginny have thought about buying one. Rita Skeeter even joked about how she thought Bill Weasley used one on Fleur Delacour. It's not like the use of one has been very frowned upon and could get a person into trouble (legally or socially) - in fact, people find it funny and giggle about it.

I would agree that love potions have the effect that a date rape drug has, and that using one for sex would be rape. Yet in our world, rape has been a kind of taboo subject. People have varying opinions on what kind of situations can be labelled rape, and getting proof and justice can be very difficult. We don't know Rowling's intent behind including love potions in her books by avoiding that connotation - could be a point about how our society can perceive sex and rape. She could have a very detailed answer for whether it's rape, but it's a children's book and I doubt she will start getting into detail about sex and rape in the wizarding world. It was never described that way in the books, and the use of love potions in the books shows us that the wizarding world didn't perceive it to be that bad legally or socially. We don't know of any laws surrounding it.

We write our articles from an "in-universe" perspective, and they don't appear to label it rape in-universe. So, anything about rape has to be put in behind the scenes. - Kates39 (talk) 20:42, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

I could not agree more Kates39. Using love potions on an individual is definitely not illegal in the wizarding world, and real world definitions of rape don't really apply to a series of books aimed by children. RedWizard98 (talk) 20:46, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Either way, there is far too much sympathetic language in relation to Merope and condemning language in relation to Tom (and yes, I consider one or two biased phrases to be 'far too much') and that's not okay in an objective article. Additionally, if so, then writing "Since Merope used a coercive magic on Tom and assumably had sexual intercourse with him to have her child, she didn't have his full consent and thus committed an act of rape" should be acceptable in "Behind the scenes" but apparently it's not. It's not even arguable; having sex with someone under the influence of alcohol is definitively rape and love potions are, as evidenced by Ron's reaction to one, much more coercive than alcohol. People don't have varying definitions; some people suppress the definition and others recognize it. I apparently cannot change the article as I have had all my changes reverted, but if someone wants to change the article they should. Jonnesty (talk) 00:21, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

I don't want to get into a big debate about a social problem like rape in "our world", and if people in our society accept a situation to fit the definition of rape. But just for clarification, I didn't say rape has varying definitions. We have been on the same page about that. The points that I gave can be found in an article that I think you would like to look at. Yes, the use of the love potion was coercive to get Riddle to do what she wanted. But we have an in-universe perspective, and we use the kind of language and context in articles that can be in found in the Harry Potter series (i.e. the wizarding world). They don't connect the use of love potions to rape yet in the wizarding world. I don't object to putting a paragraph in behind the scenes, explaining that fans have connected the use of the love potion to rape but Rowling has yet to give an answer for the subject.

I see that you erased a user's comment again and a few words in my comment. Please don't do that. It's against the rules of the wiki to erase anything off a talk-page. - Kates39 (talk) 11:41, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

It is very clear Jonnesty that despite your claims of not deliberately removing people's messages, that you have removed my above message and part of Kates39's reply purely because we have criticised with your opinion. That was totally unacceptable conduct and I have reported you again for doing this. We have all disagreed with your perspective and you have to accept that. RedWizard98 (talk) 13:40, 13 January 2021 (UTC)