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Should the duel in the graveyard between Harry and Voldemort in Goblit of Fire be in this article? - Scrimgeour

Yes it should be as it was in the run up to the war - Dirbiling Plums



Aurors

Why do you keep calling the order Aurors only Tonks and Kingsley are. (Jack the monkey yo ho ho 21:25, 14 July 2007 (UTC))

Name Change?

If the official name of the war is the Second Wizarding War, then that is what the article's name should be. --Bounty Offering 22:55, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. And the First War should also be moved. -- DarkJedi613 (Talk) 02:40, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Too long

The article seems to cluttered with all the battle templates. Maybe we should split several of the major battles and skirmishes from the article. bibliomaniac15 01:40, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree, I think we should have a small blurb for each battle and a seperate page describing the details, etc. -- DarkJedi613 (Talk) 02:41, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
agreed. Me_Potter_Fan 00:01, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I made some editations. I'm not sure if this changes your opinion on whether or not it should be split? Mafalda Hopkirk 23:26, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Not really, I still think its huge. Great job in fixing it up though! One thing I did notice is we have an article Battle of Hogwarts as well as a lengthy section in this article. That could probably be summarized better and have the {{main}} template added. I'll probably get around to doing it later - might have to merge some parts. -- DarkJedi613 (Talk) 23:28, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Haha, well, it's ok - i think they should have their own pages anyway. 161.11.121.122 23:36, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
I think we should take partial inspiration from the Clone Wars article over at Wookieepedia. They have the article as an overview of the War, with {{main}} templates directing to larger articles about certain battles/ events. I think this, as DarkJedi613 suggests, is the way to go. - Cavalier One(Wizarding Wireless Network) 23:39, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
I seperated out the "Battle of Hogwarts" section into the main article. Hopefully we can do something similar for all the other sections. -- DarkJedi613 (Talk) 17:49, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


It looks really messy. -Snoops619

I've made an attempt at separating the Battle of the Department of Mysteries.24.141.82.173 04:11, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
I just attempted to make a separate article for the Battle over Little Whinging. Oread 18:10, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I removed the infoboxes for the Battles of the Department of Mysteries, of Malfoy Manor, and over Little Whinging, since those appear in the main articles and the same was done regarding the Battle of Hogwarts when it was separated out. I think it looks a little funny, though, so if anyone thinks they should be restored, feel free. Oread 01:28, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

All the major events of the war seem to have their own main pages now. I think the main section should be reorganized a bit, but the split tag no longer seems to be necessary. Oread (talk) 16:53, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Hogwarts battles

Should it be 'First Battle of Hogwarts' and 'Second Battle of Hogwarts' or 'Battle of the Lightning Struck Tower' and 'Battle of Hogwarts'? -Matoro183 (Talk | Contributions) 22:37, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I used to refer to them as such, but I generally go for the Battle of the Astronomy Tower for the first battle, and the Battle of Hogwarts for the second. - Cavalier One(Wizarding Wireless Network) 23:39, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! -Matoro183 (Talk | Contributions) 00:54, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I think that we should not use "first" and "second" battle of Hogwarts, instead use the names given by Cavalier, because "The Battle of Hogwarts" is the one identified as such by the author in the final book. The other is should be always named Battle of the Astronomy Tower (or Lightning-Struck Tower). Lord Opeth 19:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Which Battles Should Be Considered Under The War?

Doesn't the Second Wizarding War officially begins as OotP end and before HBP, as the final chapter in OotP said. So should the Battle of the Graveyard in Little Hangleton and The Battle of the Department of Mysteries be considered under this War? Because Voldemort and his Death Eaters did not openly attack until the summer after OotP and before HBP, when they blew up that bridge that killed all those muggles and killed Amelia Bones and Emmeline Vance. Speaking of those killings, should it be consider battles as well, as Amelia is powerful Ministry witch, and Emmeline Vance was a powerful Order member. (Seasrmar)

I think that the rebirth of Voldemort is not a battle, was only a duel. Same with the murders of Emmeline, Amelia and Scrimgeur. Lord Opeth 19:54, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I forgot to mention the night when Barty Crouch Jr. attacked Mad Eye Moody and begin his impersonation of Moody for the GoF year. But yeah, I agree with you; I think they are just like skirmishes. We could cut this article down a little, by removing the all the bit before the First Battle of Hogwarts, since that in my opinion was the first really battle in the war. The Battle of the Department of Mysteries, while indeed a battle did took place, it was not until afterward when the second war officially begin begin. (Seasrmar)

I disagree. I believe that everything from (and including) the duel in the Little Hangleton Graveyard should be added. The history of World War I begins with the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand, not when the trenches were dug. The history of the Second Wizarding War should begin with the rebirth of Lord Voldemort. - Cavalier One(Wizarding Wireless Network) 09:36, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The assassination of the Archduke was not not a part of WWI because nobody at that time could have predicted a full World War was going to happen as a result. It could have just been between the Serbs and Austria-Hungary Empire, not include a series of world alliances that lead it to be known as a World War. The Assassination was just a spark prelude to the war. The Assassination happen on June 28, 1914, War was not official until July 28, 1914. Just as in WWII, when Hitler broke the Treaty of Versailles and annexing Austria, then to get part Czechoslovakia, and mobilizing troops heading toward Poland, it was just prelude War. It was not until Germany openly attacked Poland, and official recognized as a threat, and other nations whether Allies or Axis begin to take their part. So in the series, the events that happen in Sorcerer's Stone, Chamber of Secrets, Prisoner of Azkaban, Goblet of Fire, and Order of the Phoenix, were just sparks that prelude to the Second Wizard War. So we should seperate what is considered prelude from the War. We can have under the same article, but have a seperate parts between the two wars, and part that actually for the war. (Seasrmar)

I didn't say that WWI started with the assassination of the Archduke, I said the history does - that every major textbook or historical review that I've ever read covered the subject and included the Archduke. Similarly, this article needs to cover the major factors leading up to the war. I agree that it can be worked into a new framing - three sections such as Prelude to War, The Second War, and Aftermath - with each event properly located in the timeline. - Cavalier One(Wizarding Wireless Network) 23:04, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I see what you mean, I really do. Some history books and commentaries view the assassination include the Assassination as part of the War, while other doesn't, until a declaration was made a month later, like describe in the book, The Guns of August, and also particularly to military historians like my father, and soon me. I guess and it's ok with me for the sake of not having an argument on here, let's us agree to disagree on that one. I agree with what you said about spliting it into three parts. Would you then consider the parts I mention above as prelude to war then? Also, I'm new here, as you probably can tell, I don't even know how to sign my name on here. lol. So I don't even know how to edit the article, if you can please do so. I'll wait for what others have to say. (Seasrmar)

Firstly, to sign your name on talk pages, just type ~~~~ instead of your name. This produces a signature that includes your user name, the current time and the date. As for the framing, the Prelude to War section would probably include events from Philosopher's Stone, Chamber of Secrets, Prisoner of Azkaban, and Goblet of Fire. The Second War would, to me, include the Battle of the Department of Mysteries from Order of the Phoenix(since this is the Death Eaters and Voldemort's first public appearance since the end of the First War), and events from Half-Blood Prince and Deathly Hallows. Aftermath would cover what little we know from Deathly Hallows and all of the subsequent information JK has released. - Cavalier One(Wizarding Wireless Network) 08:02, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, you already know my opinion on what I consider as the beginning of the Second Wizarding War, and that is going by the last chapter name in Order of the Phoenix, which appropriately name, The Second War Begins, and this took place after the Battle of the Department of Mysteries. Voldemort and the Death Eaters did not openly attacked until after this Battle; and this Battle in my opinion was not originally intend to be a battle. It was just a covet operation by Voldemort and Death Eaters to lure Harry to the Department of Mysteries in hope of having him retrieve the prophecies. They did not intend on the Order showing up, and a battle ensue. Seasrmar 05:59, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I think the Infiltration of the Ministry and the Battle of Malfoy Manor could be cut out, because these are only skirmishes rather than battles. Battles should involve a substantial number of combatants on each side, not just a few-vs-few, and feature prolonged action rather than a brief fight lasting only a couple of minutes. Perhaps the article should have a section for major battles, and another section of notable actions including skirmishes, rather than trying to lump everything as battles. Magi COS 11:42, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that we should keep the Battle of Malfoy Manor as a page. As it was combat where the aim of the combatants was to kill, it is a battle. User:Thenorthernman 12:03, 3rd November 2008

Recent Edit

Can the details of the recent edit by Cornamenta be verified? I don't remember Yaxley having the first name "Arnold." Mafalda Hopkirk 01:56, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Smells like fanon to me. Removed for now. - Cavalier One(Wizarding Wireless Network) 12:05, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Recent name change

I don't believe we need "The" in the article title. Second Wizarding War should suffice. We don't have articles named "The Ministry of Magic" or "The Order of Phoenix". - Cavalier One(Wizarding Wireless Network) 10:03, 17 January 2008 (UTC) I'll change it back then.Me_Potter_Fan 11:02, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Casualties

It says that hundreds died on Voldemort's side but this doesn't seem right too me since their wernt that many death eaters. Me_Potter_Fan

I don't think we're ever given any exact figure on Voldemort's forces at all, let alone casualties. Only Voldemort and Bellatrix (and technically Snape but he was double agent) are known to have died on the DE side during the battle I believe. - Cavalier One(Wizarding Wireless Network) 12:25, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Causualties for Death Eaters

I belive that all the Death Eaters who are described as being defeated in the final stages of the Battle of Hogwarts should be included as DE casualties

Mando Warrior 15:33, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Why? Casualties would imply that they are dead, and there is no Canonical evidence of that being the case. - Cavalier One(Wizarding Wireless Network) 15:43, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
In real world wars, casualties are more or less anybody who cannot fight any more. Never know how wizards classify it. Still though, I think it unlikely that the DE side had hundreds of casualties, unless you're counting all the acromantula, giants, etc. Even then I think it wouldnt be that high, seems like someone coming up with numbers to me.

Second Wizarding War Title HEading

I noted that the titles headings under the section detailing the second wizarding war use the book titles. I understood the policy was that articles had to be written "in-universe" style. So shouldn't they use the years instead eg 1991-92. The constents section would need to be changed also wouldn't it?--Darth FatBoy 23:02, 5 May 2008 (UTC)Darth FatBoy

You're probably right. --Freakatone 23:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Battle of the graveyard

Should we call that a battle? I mean, just look at the Strength, neither Cedric nor the DE fought, I was barely a "duel" between Voldemort and Harry.--Lord Opeth 02:25, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Goblin's Death

Hi everyone, I was reading this article, specifically the casualties area, and notice that we are misssing one more, the goblin that report the trio breakin at Gringotts to Voldemort in DH. Here is the exact quote, page 549 US Hardback version if anybody wish to follow along. "The Elder Wand slashed through the air and green light erupted through the room; the kneeling goblin rolled over, dead..." Iknow we don't know the goblin's name but if we put the German family as a casualty and we didn't know their name, certainly we can put this goblin. This goblin death has more importance, as it was the goblin reporting to Voldemort, that cause Voldemort to worry about his horcruxes safety that lead Harry finding the Diadem at Hogwarts, and the rest is history. Seasrmar 07:56, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Goblins Death -

now, THAT was a good one. i definately agree, that should be added.

The Living Dead Zombie 19:22, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Just curious about Molly VS Bella

What curse could Molly have cast on Bellatrix that killed her?? It couldn't possibly be Avada Kevadra, she is too decent a witch to resort to such things even when taking revenge, and even if a Stunning spell directly hit her over her heart it couldn't have killed someone so powerful...anything else would not possibly kill. If it was impedimenta or reductor or expelliarmus, Bellatrix would most likely have been thrown backwards even if she was killed by such spells. Can't be anything based on Dark Magic either. If anyone happened to see any interview with JKR (if there is any that mentioned this) where she told of the event, do tell. If it is already posted somewhere here, my apologies. Tonicquill 16:28, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I think it could very well be Avada Kedavra. I understand what you mean by Molly being too decent, but then again we saw some decent wizard like Harry Potter resorting to Unforgivable Curses, for both revenge and gain. Remember how after Bellatrix kill Sirius in OotP, he tried the Cruciatus on her. Then in DH, during the trio break into Gringotts, how Harry use Imperius on both Bogrod and Travers. As a few sayings goes "All's fair in love and war." and "Desperate times call for drastic measures" So Molly, decent as she may be, might have to result in using Avada Kedavra. After all that taunting from Bellatrix about Fred's death, and perhaps reminiscing how her brothers Fabian and Gideon Prewett die from those like Bellatrix. As you know how much Molly really care about her family, those things finally drove her over the edge. Just as, while we see she be able to get really mad, we didn't expect her to say the B word, but she did. Oh, and we know Stupefy to the chest, like to the heart area, does not kill a person, even if it's 4 Stupify spells hit their in a row. The way we know was in OotP, during Harry Astronomy O.W.L.S., when McGonagall hit by Umbridge and a few Aurors as she try to defend Hagrid as the latter try to remove Hagrid from his hut. And she was pretty old as well, still the four Stupify spells only injured her, that's all. Seasrmar 19:37, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
McGonagall is extremely skilled and powerful, she had enough strength to survive it, and Poppy Pomfrey said that it was a wonder she survived. Therefore I think that a stunning spell to a vital point of a person could potentially kill? But anyway I agree with the fact that Molly could have resorted to performing a killing curse under all the pressure. Tonicquill 08:49, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm, I think what you said makes sense as well. I kind of have second thoughts about what I wrote. First, well, some spells varies in strength depending on the intent or meaning of the caster. Like again in OotP, Harry while performing the Cruciatus curse on Bellatrix, did not really mean it so Bellatrix was not really torture. So maybe when Umbridge and the aurors did their Stupify on McGonnagal, they only really intend to just stun her, not kill her, just arrest, and perhaps interrogate for information about Dumbledore whereabout. Meanwhile Molly may have meant to kill. Second, I can't help but notice, Bellatrix and Sirius deaths are very similar. Both were taunting their opponents, thus perhaps let their guard down. They both have like a surprise look on their face, no longer laughing, after the spell hit them around the chest area. Avada Kedavra is Instant Killing Curse, the victim would not have enough time to react. Also, I notice Sirius have that face before he fell into the veil. So whatever the spell was it kill him perhaps the fall into the veil, just finish the job. So it could be the Stunning Spell with more strength, or a completely different killing spell, a more slower death than Avada Kedavra as the victim have time to react, that I believe perhaps kill Sirius even before he fell in the veil. Seasrmar 10:17, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Well, it seems that the spell Molly casted will remain a mystery until JKR herself tells of it in an interview or so. I'll be curious to see what the upcoming film itself in the far future will potray the curse as. My guess is the Avada Kedavra, as the Harry Potter and The Order of the Phoenix film showed Bellatrix casting the Avada Kedavra. The book itself had stated it as the second jet of light, from this passage:

Only one pair was still battling, apparently unaware of the new arrival (Dumbledore). Harry saw Sirius duck Bellatrix's jet of red light: he was laughing at her.

"Come on, you can do better than that!" he yelled, his voice echoing around the cavernous room.

The second jet of light hit him squarely in the chest.

The laughter had not quite died from his face, but his eyes widened in shock.

There you go, Sirius had time to 'widen his eyes in shock' which contradicts the instant death nature of the killing curse. Same goes for Bellatrix when Molly struck her. I think you're right about the fact that Molly could have cast another type of slower-reacting killing curse Tonicquill 10:44, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Or maybe she just heard the spell and saw the green light in time to react to it by widening his eyes but not by dodging it. Canon states that death is instantaneous. FallenAngelII 13:48, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
I just re-listened to the audiobook. It was never stated in the book that Sirius died from Avada Kedavra. Also, consider the fact that Harry thought that Sirius may have survived the blow, thinking that Sirius may have simply disappeared beyond the veil and consequently be able to return. Remus Lupin also said "It's too late", indicating that the curse was not Avada Kedavra. If it was indeed Avada Kedavra, he would've said "He is dead", not "It's too late", indicating there was ever a time during which Sirius could have been saved. Sirius probably died due to the veil or the curse itself and Remus recognized this and most probably not due to Avada Kedavra, whatever the movie may have portrayed. For all we know, Bellatrix, in an instance of gargantuan poetic justice, may have been felled by the same spell from Molly. FallenAngelII 13:58, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes, perhaps the spell will remain a mystery until JKR tell us in an interview or that encyclopedia she promoise us. But let me examine with the quotes you provided today. It said "second jet of light." One can interpret this way; if there is a second, there have to be first, and the first most likely is like the second. And the second does not really have to mention specifically because the reader can understand they are one of the same spell. Well, we read "Harry saw Sirius duck Bellatrix's jet of red light" Stupify is has red, so the second as well is Stupify. Perhaps a much stronger Stupify, because she was driven by her love for Voldemort, so the desire to finish off Sirius, and Sirius taunting. It's like when some of us play a shooting game, or perhaps go to a shooting range. When we miss the first shot and perhaps are taunt, we follow up with a more powerful one.

About the movie, well yeah, they can portray like you say with Molly casting Avada Kedavra. Or they can do it this way. Do you remember how Bellatrix impaled Dobby to death with that silver knife? Maybe, in the movie, maybe they just have her stab the house elf to death. Then she either kept the knife as a necklace around her neck, or inside like a breastpocket or something, either way with the intent to use to kill more. We do see this in real life, of course people with weapons like knife and handguns would not go around with it, lest they may get arrested. They have it conceal in their breaspocket if not elsewhere. Well, maybe in the movie, they can have Bellatrix does that. And Molly perhaps with a stronger Stupify aims at Bellatrix chest, causing the knife to rip through the breastpocket, and impaled Bellatrix with it. Then it will be irony, Bellatrix whom kill people sometimes with that knife, is now impaled by that very knife to death. Just as the saying goes "they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." We later see it again with Voldemort, whom use Avada Kedavra to kill many people and creature, yet later when the Elder Wand refuse to kill its master will cause his Avada Kedavra Curse that intent for Harry, will kill him. What do you think? Seasrmar 18:14, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Unknown Death Eater death

I'm re reading Deathly Hallows and I just noticed that in the Fallen Warrior chapter, Kingsley Shacklebolt says he injured two Death Eaters and may have killed one, followed by Hermione saying he did. So we should add 'Unknown Death Eater' on the casualties chart in between all the other deaths that happened that night —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.126.43.240 (talkcontribs) 02:43, 13 August 2009.

I browsed through the chapter, but I could only find Kingsley's statement, and not Hermione's confirmation of it. Can you post the quote? Thanks. Starstuff (Owl me!) 09:14, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Quirrell

Just a small point, Quirrell isn't mentioned in the casualties.

Quirrell died before the Second Wizarding War actually began (he died in the interim). FallenAngelII 11:47, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
Fair enought, but Bertha Jorkins and Frank Bryce are listed, though they both died before June 24 1995, the given starting date.
Touché! Should you I edit out their deaths?FallenAngelII 18:43, September 2, 2009 (UTC)
Well then, either Quirrell needs to be added to the list, or Bertha Jorkins, Frank Bryce, and Barty Crouch Sr. all need to be removed from it. - Nick O'Demus 23:56, September 2, 2009 (UTC)
FallenAngelII, Re; "Diggory is a boderline-case as he died only minutes before the start" on your edit. Draco Malfoy remarks at the end of GoF that "Diggory was the first" (p.729), so that could be regarded as canonical support for him being the first casualty. - Nick O'Demus 13:26, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
But Draco was not present nor did he know all the facts. He did not know that Cedric was killed by Wormtail (IIRC) and he also did not know that Cedric was killed before Lord Voldemort regained full power. To Draco, Cedric was indeed the first victim of Lord Voldemort since his return to power because he simply did not have all the facts. But we do. IMHO, Cedric should not be on the list, but I left him behind as he's such a borderline case. FallenAngelII 13:30, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
Also, I forgot to say, I would prefer for Cedric to be removed as well. I left him in because his removal would probably be more controversial than the removals of Bertha and Frank. I therefore left him in pending a discussion. I vote for his removal. So what do you guys think? FallenAngelII 15:22, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
Well, I'd say keep him, as it's only a matter of a few minutes. Most wars are referenced by the day they started on, not the exact hour and minute. Also, while Draco may not have been there, his father Lucius was. We could both speculate at length about what Draco did or did not know, but the simple fact is, it's what's said in the book. So my vote: You were right in removing the others, but keep Cedric on the list. - Nick O'Demus 10:52, September 4, 2009 (UTC)

Dobby's Loyalties

In the casualties table, Hogwarts was the only loyalty listed for Dobby. I thought that I should go ahead and add Harry Potter, because anybody who has a brain can agree that Dobby was extremely loyal to him, I mean he died in Harry's arms for goodness sake. Anybody agree with me?Drummerwiz92 03:17, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Main image

I'm not suggesting an image change, as the main image is brilliant. However, I personally think a better quality was in order, and so I uploaded a much better version of the image we already have. If the previous image is preferred, you need only revert it back here. --CJSFan SigBlack Pearl, HMS Interceptor, Queen Anne's Revenge 01:52, December 8, 2011 (UTC)

Title

GSnitch This discussion is listed as an Active Talk Page.
Please remove this template when the question has been answered.

The article doesn't provide a source, but nowhere can I find anything that explicitly calls it "Second Wizarding War". "Second War", yes, but I couldn't find "Second Wizarding War". Does anyone know where this came from? --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 22:09, December 2, 2013 (UTC)

It's a war featuring wizards and the first Wizarding War was the 70s and 80s, so this is the SECOND Wizarding War.--HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 22:24, December 2, 2013 (UTC)

I know that, but if it's that logic behind the naming it should either be changed to "Second War", the name given to it per the title of the chapter in Order of the Phoenix, or at the last un-capitalised with a conjecture tag put on the article. --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 22:29, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
No. It's called the WIZARDING war as it doesn't concern the muggles; it's not like WWII and Grindlewald. Voldemort just wants to take over the Wizard World. --HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 23:32, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
It's an official name nonetheless. If, however, it is agreed that the name I suggested is unsuitable, the name "second wizarding war" should be un-capitalised with a conjecture tag placed on the article because the name is not given in canon. --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 23:34, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
Very well. --HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 00:11, December 3, 2013 (UTC)
Unless, that is, there is a source, since it was already moved to this name a long time ago and the editing note implies there was an official canon source for it. --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 00:24, December 3, 2013 (UTC)
Bumping. --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 21:26, January 3, 2014 (UTC)
I think that it should be moved. I had wondered where the "First Wizarding War" and "Second Wizarding War" names came from, as I don't recall ever having read either of the names. -- Saxon 19:23, February 2, 2014 (UTC)
Bumping. Does anyone know where this name comes from? --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 00:18, March 17, 2014 (UTC)

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