Is it just me or is the main picture a picture of ther house in Philosopher's Stone? SHouldn't we use the newer picture from Deathly Hallows Part 1? Alumeng 20:35, October 17, 2011 (UTC)
Link in ReferencesEdit
The link in the references section is broken. Can someone fix it? -- PerryPeverell 17:23, August 7, 2012 (UTC)
Was it ever stated that it was Potter Cottage?Edit
Surely, if it was Potter Cottage and belonged to James, then people would know, so the Fidelius Charm would be useless and pointless: any wizard who knew James was living there - and it was presumably lots, as it was a Wizarding Town - would be able to tell Voldemort, so it cannot be Potter Cottage.
It has to belong to Dumbledore or his family.
It can't be James's - people would know. It can't be Lily's - her family were muggles and it was in a Wizarding Town, and Lily lived in Cokeworth when she was young.
- That's not how it works, from what I understand. Once the Fidelius Charm is cast, it doesn't matter who did or didn't know about where it was located before. Only those that are in on the secret can visit. For example, think of 12 Grimmauld Place. The Death Eaters knew that something was there because Sirius had left the place to Harry in his will, but they couldn't get in because they weren't in the secret, at least until what happened with Kreacher. ProfessorTofty (talk) 21:46, April 5, 2013 (UTC)
- You miss the point - people BEFORE the Fidelius was cast KNEW of it's existance, even if they couldnt VISIT IT; if it was James's people would have known, and anyone could have blabbed to Voldemort; thus, the house must be Dumbledores. If it was James's and people blabbed between 1977 and 1979 (when Lily and James went into hiding) then Voldemort could've killed them earlier. So it CANNOT have been James's, thus it was NOT Potter Cottage.
- It either a) belonged to Bathilda, a friend of the family, or b) belonged to Dumbledore.
- As well as this, Phineas Nigellus Black - who was a portrait and died BEFORE the Fidelius was cast (it was cast by Orion, according to Sirius in OOtP; he says that his father cast "spells" on the house so muggles couldn't see it and Phineas Nigellus had died in 1926, which is 3 years before Orion was even born) - could visit it and tell people about it, so the charm DOESN'T prevent people who knew of it before from blabbing.
- Thus, the house must be Dumbledore's - as only he and Abeforth knew of it since everyone else was dead and Abeforth had no reason to blab since "people never tend to count Abeforth" - and he let James and Lily live in it.
- Not James's: people would know
- Not Lily's: Muggle family.
- Thus, I think the page should be renamed. HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 01:07, April 6, 2013 (UTC)
- A quote from ProfessorTofty's earlier post: "it doesn't matter who did or didn't know about where it was located before".
- It doesn't matter who KNEW of the house's location or existence BEFORE the Fidelius Charm was cast; once it was cast, nobody could tell other than the Secret-Keeper.
- And who did Phineas Nigellus tell? Only those who already knew of the Secret after the Charm was cast, and thus became Secret-Keepers themselves. Therefore, that point is - forgive me - somewhat irrelevant. The charm DOES keep people who knew of it before, from telling. --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 01:25, April 6, 2013 (UTC)
- (Edit conflict:) Sorry, but you (HarryPotterRules1) are missing the whole point of the Fidelius Charm. What you've got to know about the Fidelius Charm is that only the Secret-Keeper can reveal what the charm is concealing. You can probably remember Snape saying in Half-Blood Prince that he was unable to reveal the location of 12 Grimmauld Place since he was not the Secret-Keeper (which, at the time was Dumbledore):
- "And, while we are on the subject of the Order, you still claim you cannot reveal the whereabouts of their headquarters, don’t you?"
- "I am not the Secret-Keeper; I cannot speak the name of the place. You understand how the enchantment works, I think?" (HBP, chapter 2)
- For people who used to know about what the charm conceals, the Charm would do just what it does: conceal the cottage from them, and prevent them from divulging the location of the cottage, same as everyone else. That's the whole point of the charm. (oh, and by the way, since when was Phineas's portrait able to tell anyone about 12 Grimmauld Place? Sure, he could visit it -- he was part of the furniture since before the charm was cast so, in a way, he was inside the house when the charm was cast, and was never taken out [before Deathly Hallows, that is]).
- Also, even if your reasoning was correct, you couldn't just assume the cottage was Dumbledore's (why would it be, it could easily be an empty house that Lily and James had bought specifically for that reason, or just someone else's house they used, à la Ministry of Magic operation to acquire the Hogwarts Express), and you cannot conclude that it categorically wasn't Lily's (so what, she was a Muggle; Godric's Hollow is a Muggle dwelling too). -- 01:46, April 6, 2013 (UTC)
- 1) Phineas Nigellus Black had ONE portrait inside Grimmauld Place; he had ANOTHER in Dumbledore's office, so he could go between them - that means, despite the Fidelius Charm - he could blab; he lived there, knew the location - and, due to being dead and a portrait - wasn't affected by said charm.
- 2) Not ONLY the secret keeper can tell; Lupin, Sirius, Bathilda,and Pettgirew knew of Godric's Hollow - they could go there, which means that they, knowing of it's location, could blab; we know that - apart from Pettigrew - they didn't blab. There's no indication that people who know BEFORE the Fidelius was cast could not tell; (The point of Grimmauld Place made by Totfy is irellevent; Orion cast the Fidelius when Sirius - and Snape too - was young, thus he only learned the location AFTER the Fidelius was cast, meaning that he couldn't tell, but people before, which links to point 1, can, as Phineas Nigellus can); as well as this, the Dumbledores - Aberforth and Albus - knew of it, having lived there in their childhood, and Dumbledore put a charm on the house to warn him after Voldemort killed Lily and James, so he knew the location too.
- 3) Godric's Hollow was a wizarding village; Muggles are, despite everything, going to notice a house suddenly go missing - and Bathilda, a witch - lived in Godric's Hollow, so it was a wizarding village; this also means that, since Muggles would get suspicious about seeing a house disappear in front of them, that the house had to belong to a magical person. The only magical people there at the time were a) Bathilda, who visited the house on Harry's 1st birthday and was going a little gaga, b) Sirius, c) Remus, d) Pettigrew, e) Dumbledore and f) Snape. Thus, it must be a magical house; it's not Sirius's - he has Grimmauld Place; it's not Lupin's - James provided for him; it's not Pettigrew's- Lily writes in her letter that he "visited"; it's not Bathilda's - we see hers in DH; it's not Snape's - he has his mother's house in Spinner's End; since it can't be James's - too many wizards and witches would know of it through knowing his parents, etc - and it can't be Lily's, since she is a muggleborn - it must be Dumbledores.
- Thus, it is NOT Potter Cottage.HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 02:05, April 6, 2013 (UTC)
- WRONG! The Making of Harry Potter may call it that, but J.K. Rowling - who is a much higer canon - has never called it that, nor have the books or films, so you will need to add a "conjuncture" thing to the top; it's a name we have, but not the official conirmed name by J.K. Rowling. HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 03:13, April 7, 2013 (UTC)
- Your logic remains flawed. Secret-Keepers are the only ones who can reveal the location of something protected by the Fidelius Charm. People who know about the location, but who aren't Secret-Keepers simply can't (we don't know how they can't, we just know it's impossible for them to reveal it, as Snape confirmed in Half-Blood Prince). That's why Harry was given a note written by Dumbledore, telling him the street address of the Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix in the fifth book -- if the others could just tell him, don't you think Moody, or Lupin, or anyone else in the Advance Guard for that matter would just orally inform him? No, because they couldn't. I've said it, and I repeat: only the Secret-Keeper can reveal the secret guarded via Fidelius Charm, so, no, people who knew James before the Potters went into hiding would be, from that point on, oblivious to the location of the cottage, and could not "blab" to any one. That's how the Charm works, canon points it out clearly in the third book and again in the sixth and seventh books.
- Phineas clearly could not "blab" to anyone about Grimmauld Place, as demonstrated above. Your claim that "due to being dead and a portrait - wasn't affected by said charm" is an abusive inferrence: what in canon ever suggests that? In fact, canon shows us that charms can affect the subjects of portraits just as they affect real people (one example is the Obscuro charm).
- You say that "Godric's Hollow was a wizarding village; Muggles are, despite everything, going to notice a house suddenly go missing". I don't even know where to start on this one. First, Godric's Hollow is a Muggle dwelling in which some Wizarding families have settled following the signature of the International Statute of Secrecy in 1689, as revealed in Chapter 16 of Deathly Hallows. So, as much as you insist that it must be a wizarding village since Bathilda Bagshot lived there, that is not proof of anything -- it is, in fact, outright denied at least two times (in the chapter I've already pointed out in Deathly Hallows; and in Prisoner of Azkaban, where it is mentioned that Hogsmeade is the ONLY truly wizarding village in Great Britain). Second, and perhaps more obviously, London is also a Muggle dwelling! And, in case you've not noticed, 12 Grimmauld Place is a house that disappeared in the middle of London: Muggles were oblivious to the disappearance of the house (because of the Fidelius Charm), and disregarded it as an amusing numbering mistake that made No. 11 sit alongside No. 13, with no No. 12 in between. So, allow me to disprove you but, no, the cottage needn't belong to a wizard.
- Given my above reasoning, ruling out the potential owers of the house in the way you did is both inappropriate and incorrect: who's to say the house wasn't James's? Who's to say the house wasn't Lily's (Muggle-borns can buy real estate, too, you know)? Who's to say the house wasn't an empty cottage, bought by the Potters in the 1980s? Who's to say it wasn't Sirius's (he moved out of Grimmauld Place when he was 16, as I'm sure you know)? Who's to say it didn't belong to other wizards living in Godric's Hollow, who gave them their house, but were not in on the Fidelius Charm, and were left oblivious to the house's location? Notice that I am not saying that the house did not belong to Dumbledore -- I am merely saying that we cannot simply prove the house was the Dumbledores before James and Lily settled in.
- At any rate, and even if you were right, as Hunnie Bunn and ProfessorTofty already pointed out, the name "Potters' Cottage" is given in canon -- the name "Dumbledores' Cottage" (apart from the fact that it could've not belonged to the Dumbledores at all) is not. -- 23:36, April 17, 2013 (UTC)