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Um.....this hardly pertains to Harry Potter.....--Courage the Cowardly User 06:35, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

Does it?

YEs! many thing do not pertain to harrypotter

Delete vote

Vote to add the deletion tag or not, this is not the actual deletion, just the vote to add the deletion tag or not....--Courage the Cowardly User (talk) 15:38, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Delete

--Courage the Cowardly User (talk) 15:38, October 9, 2010 (UTC)
--KatBlueDog Hey there! 15:47, October 9, 2010 (UTC)
-- Matthew Arous. 2:08pm, December 1, 2011
92.23.114.170 20:41, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

Keep

  1. I don't think it's less relevant than say, Lionfish, which has its own article separate from Lionfish spine. I think it's kind of interesting that there's a possibility, however vague, that Dumbledore could be part Native American. EmmyG 15:51, October 9, 2010 (UTC)
  2. --L.V.K.T.V.J.Hogwarts(Send an owl!) 15:58, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Comments

There are many things on this wiki that are here for the mere sake of them being mentioned. There are many people mentioned on JKR's sight that have their own arrticles.--L.V.K.T.V.J.Hogwarts(Send an owl!) 15:58, October 9, 2010 (UTC) Harry said he thought kendra looked like a native American, a very very small mention, we don't even know if any native Americans were shown in the series.--Wit beyond measure is man's greatest treasure. (talk) 19:26, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

In Harry Potter and Me is mentioned a Ravenclaw student with the name Stephen Cornfoot. Cornfoot seems to be a native American name. So I think - when he is british, what is very likely - he must have native American roots. Harry granger 19:37, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

That is speculation--Wit beyond measure is man's greatest treasure. (talk) 19:44, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

It is also speculation that Harry Potter thinks Kendra Dumbledore could be a native American because of her looks but that does not make it more improbable. Do you know a "not Red Indian" with the surname Cornfoot?


Regardless of all of this, the term "Native American" is used, in the book, in the context of describing Kendra Dumbledore's looks; since Kendra Dumbledore's article here reflects that fact, it makes sense to have another one explaining what a Native American is. If we have articles explaining what a Budgerigar and Neptune are because they were mentioned, or what a tomato is because Bertie Bott has a tomato flavored bean, I don't really get why this article is a problem. --EmmyG 20:21, October 9, 2010 (UTC)


J.K. Rowling doesn't mention Native Amercans, but she shows them in the Goblit of Fire. In the discription of the black hair American witches who were sitting under the sign 'Salem Insitute' he discribes them as wearing strange clothes, and speaking in unfamiler toungs. Prehapes she was trying to say in the magical world the Americas have kept the customs of their native people, who also have very powerful folklore and belifs in magic.-Leah Walentosky

I am pretty sure that Cornfoot is European - remember vaguely the etymology but it is on the other computer. (Vaudree (talk) 09:23, March 10, 2016 (UTC))

Terminology

GSnitch This discussion is listed as an Active Talk Page.
Please remove this template when the question has been answered.

Coming from the traditional territory of the Mississaugas of Scugog Island First Nation, I've always been taught that the terms "Native"/"Native American"/"Indian" are offensive, and that "First Nations", "Métis" and "Inuit" are preferred.

However, I'm not sure whether the same rules apply in the United States of America or around the world, or indeed whether political correctness would take precedence over canon. As the article on the wiki currently stands, according to what students in Ontario are being taught, we're describing "First Nations".

Is this a universal thing, or is it just a Canadian thing (eh)? And if "FNMI" (First Nations, Métis and Inuit) is accepted globally, does it apply in a canon context? Or does it not really matter? --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 23:22, June 7, 2015 (UTC)

"First Nations" is, apparently, only a term used in Canada (I know I've certainly never heard it). Wikipedia, as always having an article on everything, has a whole page on the so-called Native American name controversy. The important thing to take away from the article is that, internationally (and therefore in Britian), the PC term seems to be the cumbersome "indigenous peoples of the Americas". However, Wikipedia also notes that no name is truly acceptable to all "indigenous peoples"; I personally know people who are natives or of native decent who call themselves by the "obsolete" term "Indians".
Therefore, I think the best policy is to stick with the term used in canon. After all, we have plenty of pages at "incorrect" titles but canon names, so I see no need for us to use a PC name over a canon name (so long as we aren't titling this page "redskin" or "Injun" or something in that vein). Per our canon policy, I think the best term to use is American Indian, as Rowling's personal comments take precedence over the books. -- 1337star (Drop me a line!) 21:02, June 8, 2015 (UTC)

I think that it depends on the location of the school - which seems to be some where between Quebec and Ottawa near waterways traditionally filled with Elver (giving the school its name). JKR would be more familiar with American terminology than Canadian terminology because Brits get more American news than Canadian news. While the exact location of the school is in dispute, both Canadian and American terminology should be used. Indigenous refers to First Nation, Inuit and Metis and the latter two can be ruled out considering the approximate location. Probably best when one does get an exact location is to refer to the tribe or tribes to which it is their traditional lands, as is the common courtesy as of late. Politicians and protesters seem to be extending that courtesy at the beginning of their speeches as of late.

In the mean time, if one knows any First Nation / Native American mythology involving eels, it would help. (Vaudree (talk) 21:51, February 1, 2016 (UTC))

Most of the Mi'kmaq legends on the kataq or katew (ie Elver or American eel) are on PDF and this netbook doesn't do pdf! (Vaudree (talk) 23:12, February 1, 2016 (UTC))

"Native American" is the term used in canon. Specifically, on page 178 of my copy of Deathly Hallows (Raincoast hardcover), an old photo of Kendra Dumbledore makes Harry "[think] of Native Americans." It's true that J. K. Rowling recently used the term "American Indian" in a tweet, but the canon tier policy is meant to be applied when she contradicts herself on facts, e.g., if she says Durmstrang is in Northern Europe in GOF, then says it's in Siberia in a later interview, we should defer to the most recent information. The term actually used in the books should always take precedence over a term used by Rowling in an offhand tweet.
Articles should generally be titled after the term used to describe the subject in canon. The exception would be if the only term used to describe a particular subject in canon were an offensive term. If the only reference to the indigenous peoples of North America in canon were Vernon Dursley making a racist joke (something he seems to like doing), and he used an offensive term to describe them, then of course we should use an acceptable term to title our article instead, because decency trumps canonicity.
But "Native American," to my knowledge, isn't generally regarded as offensive. The Oxford English Dictionary and other dictionaries don't deem it offensive or dated, unlike "Indian," which is always accompanied by a usage note explaining that many people view the word as problematic given its history. The OED's definition of "Native American" also applies to all indigenous peoples of North America and South America. So it doesn't seem to be the case that the term "Native American" applies only to indigenous peoples of the United States. Thus I don't see a need to mention the Canada-specific term "First Nations" in the in-universe section of the article. Though it might be worth discussing terminology in the "Behind the scenes" section of the article. Starstuff (Owl me!) 06:45, February 9, 2016 (UTC)

In DH, there was a reference to Native Americans agree. But there is no where in Canon to say that it applies to all indigenous people of North and South America so one has to presume that it applies only to the USA (see Wikipedia and quotes from Parliamentary transcript below). Ilvermorny has to be listed as located in North America since it is hard to tell its exact location from the map - presume that we will learn of its exact location soon enough. JKR did say that there was Native American influence in the school that the people Newt meets in New York went to - and maybe that can be quoted. Can't find the quote, so hoping you can.

Agree that the term First Nation, since it was not used in Canon, should be in the "Behind the Scenes" section and that the same tribes were sometimes denoted differently depending on which side of the border one is located. You made a good case for that.

The Native American entry from Wikipedia [1]

Quote from First Nation Entry from Wikipedia: "While the word "Indian" is still a legal term, its use is erratic and in decline in Canada.[19][20] Some First Nations people consider the term offensive, while others prefer it to "aboriginal person/persons/people," even though the term is a misnomer given to indigenous peoples of North America by European explorers who erroneously thought they had landed on the Indian subcontinent. The use of the term "Native Americans", which the United States government and others have adopted, is not common in Canada.[15] It refers more specifically to the aboriginal peoples residing within the boundaries of the United States.[21] " [2]

June 11th, 2008 was the day of the apology for residential schools and that was the only business that day, so you can look through the speeches to see if there is even one mention of "Native Americans" - sample quotes from the party leaders:

Harper: "For more than a century, Indian residential schools separated over 150,000 aboriginal children from their families and communities. In the 1870s, the federal government, partly in order to meet its obligations to educate aboriginal children, began to play a role in the development and administration of these schools. Two primary objectives of the residential school system were to remove and isolate children from the influence of their homes, families, traditions and cultures, and to assimilate them into the dominant culture. These objectives were based on the assumption that aboriginal cultures and spiritual beliefs were inferior and unequal. Indeed, some sought, as was infamously said, “to kill the Indian in the child”." / " Many were inadequately fed, clothed and housed. All were deprived of the care and nurturing of their parents, grandparents and communities. First nations, Inuit and Métis languages and cultural practices were prohibited in these schools. Tragically, some of these children died while attending residential schools, and others never returned home."

Dion: " Government policy destroyed the fabric of family in first nations, Métis and Inuit communities." / "Today we live in a reality created by the residential schools system, a present that is haunted by this tragic and painful heritage from those first nations, Métis and Inuit children, from their families and their communities, a dark and painful heritage that all Canadians must accept as a part of our history.

For too long, Canadian governments chose denial over truth, and when confronted with the weight of truth, chose silence. For too long, Canadian governments refused to acknowledge their direct role in creating the residential schools system and perpetrating their dark and insidious goal of wiping out aboriginal identity and culture. For too long, Canadian governments chose to ignore the consequences of this tragedy instead of trying to understand them so that the suffering of first nations, Métis and Inuit communities continues to this day."

Layton: "It was this Parliament that enacted, 151 years ago, the racist legislation that established the residential schools. This Parliament chose to treat first nations, Métis and Inuit people as not equally human. It set out to kill the Indian in the child. That choice was horribly wrong. It led to incredible suffering. It denied first nations, Métis and Inuit the basic freedom to choose how to live their lives. For those wrongs that we have committed, we are truly sorry." / " It begins with officially recognizing the rights and cultures of first nations, Métis and Inuit peoples by signing the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

But reconciliation also means that, as a Parliament and as a country, we must take action to address the terrible inequality faced by first nations, Métis and Inuit communities. We can start by restoring the nation-to-nation relationship between the Government of Canada and first nations, Métis and the Inuit." [3]

Indian is offensive to some, but also confusing if there is a huge East Indian population in an area - so there is another reason that it is falling out of use besides Native Americans / First Nations hating anything associated with Christopher Columbus. I think that JKR lumps East Indians (ie Sikhs, Hindus, Tamil, etc) along with the Japanese and Chinese and Korean etc as Asian - which is very a different way of doing things.

(Vaudree (talk) 08:10, February 9, 2016 (UTC)) (Vaudree (talk) 08:25, February 9, 2016 (UTC))

Reactions

This is something I don't quite feel comfortable adding as a first time editor on this wiki, but I would like to point out many Native Americans are not impressed by the first chapter of Magic in North America, particularly the lumping together of the American peoples and the insinuation that Medicine Men were canonically frauds. Among those who've criticized Rowling are Dr. Adrienne Keene (Cherokee, currently writing a post), Prof. Debbie Reese (Pueblo of Nambé) and Johnnie Jae (Choctaw) of A Tribe Called Geek & Native Max Mag. Don't ask me, just go on Twitter! If editors are aware of the controversy and are just waiting on Rowling to respond or whether subsequent chapters cause the consensus to shift, I do apologize, but it wouldn've been remiss not to bring it up. I hope this can be acknowledged like the Lavender Brown controversy. --Alientraveller (talk) 19:51, March 8, 2016 (UTC)

We generally try to avoid introducing politics into articles here on the Harry Potter Wiki. Most of the time, real-world political issues and controversies are only of tangential relevance to the Harry Potter universe, and introducing them into articles generally only alienates the broad audience to which we're trying to appeal. We also have an NPOV policy and thus want to try to keep random editors from using articles as a platform to express their personal views.
But I do think this is a special case. J. K. Rowling's portrayal of Native Americans, well-intended as it probably was, has evidently drawn criticism from actual Native Americans, and I don't think that's something we should shy away from covering. It's clearly relevant. Starstuff (Owl me!) 21:56, March 8, 2016 (UTC)
Please do so. Dr. Keene's posted her critique which you can cite. Keene, Jae and writer/filmmaker Brian Young (Navajo) are also quoted at the Guardian. --Alientraveller (talk) 15:40, March 9, 2016 (UTC)
Hope the new paragraph I've added to "Behind the scenes" section does an adequate job of summarizing the main concerns that are being raised. Any more specific points being made about the use of skin-walkers and medicine men could be added to those two articles, but I think the goal here, ideally, should be to give a brief but thorough overview of the situation. Starstuff (Owl me!) 22:00, March 9, 2016 (UTC)

Probably best to wait until all four parts are in. I think that JKR's original intent with part 1 was to try to say that many of the same issues that occur between magical and non magical people of British culture occurred among all cultures and all peoples - that all cultures and all peoples have magical an non magical individuals and that in all cultures and all peoples there was always a segment which was distrustful of magical folk. That magical indigenous and European folk knew of each other before the Vikings came may explain why they helped nurse back to health people who washed up on their shores with scurvy.

Part 2 seems to touch on events in the no-maj world only to the degree that they impacted the wizarding world rather than the official and unofficial reasons for why muggle Europeans were exterminating no-maj "Native Americans". JKR seems only concerned that these squirmishes kept magical Europeans and magical "Native Americans" from living together in harmony and learning from each other a bit more. JKR has associated guns and wands before - and guns came from Europe. And one has to admit that, from what JKR said of Scourers and their descendants, that Sir John A MacDonald probably hired more than a few as Indian Agents or to run his residential schools. This brings up another point - how some Cree from the St James Bay went to Ilvermorny and other went to St. Anne's Residential school where, besides the usual, one had to eat your vomit three days after you threw it up and they put kids in a makeshift electric chair for either punishment or the amusement of staff. Considering that there could be magical and non maj members of the same family - very different experiences.

JKR is in Europe and she probably does have a very generic view of indigenous peoples of North America and is probably heavily influenced by what she sees on TV and in Movies - though, likely she is that way concerning all Americans and Canadians and Mexicans. Her Americans in general are apt to be fairly stereotypical - more how a Brit would see them than how they would see themselves. JKR also probably isn't keeping up with recent revelations showing that one was more likely to die attending residential school than fighting in WWI. She is oblivious to many of the controversies.

My suggestion after part 4 is out is to work together to find a way of saying things in a way to explain what the average 10-12 year old should know behind the scenes in a way that is respectful to those JKR refers to as "Native American" but also in keeping with the rules set down as far as canon goes. Said my piece - ducking out. The pain it takes to get to a proper compromise will be worth it. (Vaudree (talk) 09:14, March 10, 2016 (UTC))

It would be nice if there was a school where one was encouraged, rather than forbidden, to speak one's language and where the teachings of one's elders were respected. And where European and Indigenous magic was given equal footing. Don't know yet if Ilvermorny is it. (Vaudree (talk) 09:28, March 10, 2016 (UTC))

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