Date of DeathEdit
How do we know that July 28 is when Karkaroff died? From what I recall, Remus told Harry about his death during the summer, but he didn't say exactly when it happened. Oread 16:41, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
What was he doing on the Great Hall?Edit
On Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (film), there's a scene (placed immediately after the Welcoming Feast) that shows Karkaroff subreptitiously going into the deserted Great Hall, where the Goblet of Fire was. I always wondered what was he doing there. -- 01:17, September 11, 2009 (UTC)
- In-universe answer - I had wondered if that may have actually been Barty Crouch Jr., polyjuiced to look like Karkaroff insted of Moody at the time so as to deflect suspicion in case he was noticed.
- Out-of-universe answer - It was an easy way for the filmmakers to set up Karkaroff as a red-herring.
- Nick O'Demus 16:07, September 11, 2009 (UTC)
- I always thought he was smuggling Krum's name in secretly, so no-one would know if he had entered and not pressure Krum into cracking - he was very proud and "caring" of Krum in the books after all. HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 20:51, October 19, 2013 (UTC)
Which country does Karkaroff come from? His name implies that he comes a country like Serbia, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Russia, or another Slavic Country, however he speaks "normal" English, like "Vot Vos that?" is "What Was that?" I have not seen the film, so I do not know about his accent, but I'm currently reading the book, where I found out the words (but not his name). TurboGolf 21:12, November 13, 2009 (UTC)
I think the main quote should be changed since a similar quote is being used in the relationships section for Snape. -Smonocco 22:43, December 27, 2009 (UTC)
Relationships: Alastor Moody Edit
I removed the line about it being unknown how Moody reacted to Karkaroff's death because Moody was almost certianly dead by the time the Order found out about Karkaroff. Also, it can also be assumed that Moody captured Karkaroff by the way Karkaroff reacts to the imposter Moody asking him to remember that it's his job to think like a Dark wizard. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 22.214.171.124 (talk • contribs).
- We don't even know if he attended Hogwarts School. -- 14:37, July 24, 2011 (UTC)
Year of BirthEdit
From where, exactly, was it extrapolated that Karkaroff was born in around 1950? --15:31, August 25, 2012 (UTC)
About the abillities: It isn't speculation, its fact.
- Igor Karkaroff eluded capture until the end of the FWW, and even then it took Alastor Moody six months to track him down. Later, Voldemort spent more than twice that time to locate him. This speaks for his abilities as a wizard, as it would take a certain level of magical capability to do avoid being hunted down for such a long time.
- Igor Karkaroff served as a Death Eater and - as confirmed in book 4 - tortured Muggles along with Antonin Dolohov, who was one of the most powerful Death Eaters in the service of their cause. Voldemort must have considered Karkaroff to be pretty capable in his own right, allowing him to go out in the field with a wizard of Dolohov's calibre. If not, Karkaroff wouldn't be there, because Voldemort would either not have thought him worthy or thought he would run the risk of Karkaroff messing it up if Karkaroff was an adept wizard. As mentioned before, Karkaroff's skill with the Cruciatus Curse was confirmed by Alastor Moody during the former's trail, so it's safe to say he knew his stuff regarding the Dark Arts.
- By 1970, the Knights of Walpurgis (later renamed the "Death Eaters") was an organisation that included people that Tom Marvolo Riddle, who became Lord Voldemort, knew from his time at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry as well as their relations. Nearly all of those recruited were from Slytherin House (however, there may have been recruits from Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, Ravenclaw, and even from foreign schools within the ranks as well, primarily Peter Pettigrew and Igor Karkaroff). Actively gathering an army of Dark Wizards and creatures, with the belief that his hidden Horcruxes granted him immortality, Voldemort and his followers planned to overthrow the Ministry of Magic. An army fights wars, and it was war. Karkaroff was a Death Eater and would WITHOUT A DOUBT have fought against those who opposed Lord Voldemort during Karkaroff's time as his servant. It's not a speculation, it's called to read between the lines. By saying he was a Death Eater during Voldemort's first rise to power, you confirm he fight in the war. Rowling wrote in the fourth book that he was captured AFTER Voldemort's fall from power, meaning he WITHOUT A DOUBT he was quite able to handle himself in battle against Aurors and members of the Order. Rowling wrote it took the most talented Auror there was to even track him down, let alone capture him after half a year, meaning Karkaroff's abilities as a duelist is considerable. If not, he would been captured sooner. I repeat myself, I'm not speculating, I'm reading between the lines, and what I write is basically as canon as if she'd say it in an interview, since it is deduced by obvious conclutions made by her written works.
- Albus Dumbledore is Headmaster of Hogwarts and tasked with controlling the protective spells sorrounding his school, Igor Karkaroff is Highmaster of Durmstrang. Different name, same position, and thus same resposibility.
- He is a strong leader. Not a role model or anything, letting his students do the dirty work and talking down to them. And yes, as Highmaster, he may have strenghtened Durmstrang's dark reputation, but none the less a good one, or else his school wouldn't be accepted into the Tournament. It's a difference between a good leader and a popular leader. More often than not, the leader might be both, but sometimes... he/she's not. And Karkaroff is a firm, yet unpleasent leader of the school. Had he done a all too awful job on assuring the student's academical future, he would a) be fired prior to book 4, or b) been considered unfit to represent a school in the Torunament, which would mean they would have another school compete instead. Leadership skills CONFIRMED. Reading between the lines do not equal speculations. User:Simen Johannes Fagerli.
- "Magical Mastery" is an exaggeration, certainly, and there's no denying that. J. K. Rowling once stated that one enchantment would hide a wizard, and between the sheer size of the wilderness in Europe and the fact that there are enchantments to hide a wizard's location, it isn't exactly "magical mastery" to hide for a year.
- You claim that he has proven talent because he was not captured by the Ministry; Severus Snape, Avery and countless other Death Eaters were not captured until the end of the war, and Avery wasn't exactly the most skilled.
- I've kept the bit on the Dark Arts, because that was true.
- Duelling can be divided into Defensive and Dark Magic, and both sections are still present. Likewise, the Charms section is still there, though making it clear that it is still speculation.
- The Tournament was established as a friendly competition between the three schools seven hundred years ago, long before Karkaroff was even thought about. Durmstrang would compete, bad leader or good; his school wasn't selected to go based on its reputation, it went because it has always gone and its leader supported going.
- Also, you claim that reading between the lines is different from speculation; in fact, it almost always is the same. You are saying something based on your thoughts, no matter how those thoughts were provoked or where they came from. --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 22:03, October 15, 2013 (UTC)
- Even if, Igor Karkaroff would STILL have fought in the war as part as Voldemort's army, against both Aurors and members of the Order. It goes without saying that he would have fought the enemies of the Dark Lord, and as mentioned earlier, it took the best Auror for ceunturies to capture him. What if I write that it can be assumed that he was liekly to have been a reasonably capable duellist? If he couldn't handle himself, Voldemort would have had limited use for him and therefore he'd never be accepted into the ranks of the Death Eaters in the first place.
- PS: A book is like a ball of yarn. When you read it, you get an idea of how the 'ball' look. When you read between the lines, it's like looking over end result of the - let's say a scarf, that you just made. To read between the lines of a book is not speculation, but rather like picking away loose threads that the author left behind. - User:Simen Johannes Fagerli
- Four centuries? Err, I don't think so. Wormtail - though not without his uses - is one of the most inept wizards we meet in the books, yet he was still accepted into the ranks of the Death Eaters. It makes perfect sense that Voldemort would want to build contacts with like-minded wizards from overseas. Karkaroff could have been recruited purely for this reason.-- 11:12, October 20, 2013 (UTC)
- Ah, but Wormtail was accepted into the ranks purely because he could be used to end the Potters and the one, inexplainable threat that was Harry Potter. If Wormtail had seeked out Voldemort and asked to join under the false pretence of actually wanting to serve him, Voldemort, clever as he is, would be likely to have laughed at him, being aware of his lack of skill, and killed him for being completely useless to him.
- And - well, there you have it. He was looked down upon by all his peers. No Death Eater had ever treated him like anything more than a servant, and no one ever would due to his lack of skill, devotion and loyalty to their Master. Even if Karkaroff was a contact oversea and joined the cause instead of leaving Hogwarts and do so, (which I agree, makes more sense), he was on good terms with Antonin Dolohov. Dolohov is loyal, he is powerful and he is highly respected. If Karkaroff was on good terms of it, it is impossible he can have been THAT incompetent, or else he would simply be stepped on and mistreated like Wormtail was. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Simen Johannes Fagerli (talk • contribs).
- It's never stated that he was on "good terms" with Dolohov. From Goblet of Fire, ch.30:
- "There was Antonin Dolohov," he said. "I - I saw him torture countless Muggles and - and non-supporters of the Dark Lord."
- "And helped him do it," murmured Moody.
- That's it. That is all that is said. You contrast Karkaroff with Wormtail, and cite Wormtail's treatment as proof, but it could be said all the same that Wormtail "helped" Bellatrix and the Malfoys with their prisoners at the Manor. The wording is not indicative of his status among the Death Eaters.
- Furthermore, regarding the "Defensive Magic" and "Charms" points: The "Defensive Magic" point states that Karkaroff was "able to evade capture from the Ministry of Magic for nearly twenty years". This is flatly incorrect. He didn't "evade capture", he made a deal to get released. They weren't even trying to catch him during that time. And as Hunnie Bunn stated further up, there are spells to help people go into hiding, so there's nothing that supports the claim there that he was a "fairly skilled wizard".
- As for the "Charms" point, while it is stated that Durmstrang has at least some protective enchantments, it is never stated that Karkaroff himself cast them. In Goblet of Fire, Krum says that Karkaroff made the students do all the work on the ship while he just stayed in his cabin, so it could just as easily be assumed that he made someone else do the work on Durmstrang's enchantments.
- The bottom line is, there were far too many assumptions being made in your edits than what is acceptable. While Pottermore may shed some more light on Karkaroff in the near future, for now the matter will be considered closed. - Nick O'Demus 18:26, October 22, 2013 (UTC)
- On the contrary, Simen, I understand narrative structure quite well. However, I also understand how to be impartial, analytical, and to differentiate between what I may assume to be and what actually is. As one of my teachers used to say, "Don't assume. It makes an ass of u and me." - Nick O'Demus 21:36, October 24, 2013 (UTC)
- It's obvious you think that Nick, and understandable as well. However - every one of those points you tried to make about the character named Igor Karkaroff is - wrong. As are you, I'm afraid, Hunnie. Or - for the latter, just in the sense that I'm making random guesses based on what I think. Actually, it's quite the opposite. The difference is that I see the big picture. There is information about characters not handed to us by the description of a character's facal expressions or tone of voice. Details which is confirmed by the author but yet to be picked up. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Simen Johannes Fagerli (talk • contribs).
- You can keep on thinking of your own assumptions and personal interpretations as "reading between the lines" or "seeing the big picture" all you like, but it won't change the fact that it's still speculation to the point of almost borderline fanon, NOT verified canon, and NOT acceptable under the rules and policies of this wiki.
- What it comes right down to is this: Every person who reads these stories will have their own personal interpretations of them. EVERY. SINGLE. PERSON. And although some of those interpretations may be similar, they will NEVER be exactly alike. Your own personal interpretation, your "big picture", will NOT be the same as someone else's, and might not be any more or less valid than theirs is. The only person who can definitively tell what the author was really trying to say is J. K. Rowling herself. However, she isn't the one writing this wiki; we, the fans, are. And in order to keep this wiki as impartial and factual as possible,, we can't rely on what we think she was trying to say, but rather on what has actually been said. - Nick O'Demus 06:03, October 26, 2013 (UTC)
- It isn't assuptions or guesswork, it's stated in the books, but not by looking at Karkaroff's words or facial expression, but the information given of him. What I wrote IS what is actually said. Like it or not, but at some point you'd have to realize that in at least this spesific case, you're wrong. Now, if you'd like, I can point out every single mistake made in the claims on my supposed wrong information?
That's it. That is all that is said. You contrast Karkaroff with Wormtail, and cite Wormtail's treatment as proof, but it could be said all the same that Wormtail "helped" Bellatrix and the Malfoys with their prisoners at the Manor. The wording is not indicative of his status among the Death Eaters.
Well, we can start with the fact that no Death Eater at no time has been so inept and unappreciated as Wormtail. He was branded with the Dark Mark solely because he on one occasion during the First Wizarding War was considered valuable to the Dark Lord. In general, however, it is in fact so that Voldemort led a war against the Ministry of Magic, and therefore needed capable wizards who could fight for the cause. Hence Igor Karkaroff must have shown himself worthy of the task, otherwise he would never have been included into the inner circle of Death Eaters. Since there is no evidence that Karkaroff had any connection to the neither the Ministry of Magic or the the Order, and thus probably had no information as essential as Wormtail's. Alas, he could not buy his way in, meaning that he must have joined by having shown his worth.
Furthermore, regarding the "Defensive Magic" and "Charms" points: The "Defensive Magic" point states that Karkaroff was "able to evade capture from the Ministry of Magic for nearly twenty years". This is flatly incorrect. He didn't "evade capture", he made a deal to get released. They weren't even trying to catch him during that time. And as Hunnie Bunn stated further up, there are spells to help people go into hiding, so there's nothing that supports the claim there that he was a "fairly skilled wizard".
It is true that he made a deal to be released, but it is also true that he evaded arrest for years before that. Also, keep in mind that it was war. The Ministry of Magic sought to hunt for ALL Death Eaters throughout the entire First Wizarding War to stop them from terrorizing both the wizarding world and the Muggle society alike. Even when Bart Crouch Sr. gave the Aurors permission to kill rather than capture, Karkaroff was still alive after Voldemort fell from power. We know that several Death Eaters were killed in the war, for example, Evan Rosier and Wilkes, and still, Karkaroff survived. As mentioned above, it is completely unrealistic to think that Karkaroff was at the bottom of the food chain like Wormtail, and as he was involved in torturing Muggles, which the Aurors GUARANTEED would do everything in their power to stop, that means that Karkaroff must have been must have encountered to them at some point and fought his way free since he was not apprehended until after the war. This is what I mean by him being reasonably skillful. He survived a war with Dark Wizard Catchers with a lisence to kill. Futhermore, he helped Antonin Dolohov, one of the most powerful Death Eaters of them all on occassion, which he would not been allowed to if he was considered useless like Wormtail, because they would then run the risk of Karkaroff would have a) just been in the way, or b) messed up and got himself captured or killed. In any case, had he been a wizard who lacked in magical prowess like Wormtail, he'd not been chosen/allowed to come along.
Also, even after having given up names of fellow Death Eaters to the Ministry, he was still on good terms with Lucius Malfoy, who even back in the First War was quite a high-ranking Death Eater himself. That doesn't mean that Karkaroff was held in such high regard, but he certainly must have been a respected one. He earned Lucius Malfoy's respect, as Malfoy would not have considered sending Draco to a school headed by someone he looked down upon or disliked, regardless of wether the school accept Muggle-Borns or not. Furthermore, he was on first name with Snape, which I can't remember many of the Death Eater's to have been. Snape, while not as high ranking as Lucius in the First War certainly was a most skillful wizard, as proven by now the Death Eaters seemed to fear Snape's abilities, as they instantly stood down when he approached to kill Dumbledore, despite Draco being tasked with the job. And they had not even seen nor spoken to him for years at that point. Karkaroff seemed, like Snape, to be wary of Alastor Moody, but he spoke casually with Snape until the point where Karkaroff become scared when the Dark Mark began to become clearer. Being bad at hiding his emotions, it would be easy to see if Karkaroff felt intimidated by Snape. Moody was the one to capture him, and Karkaroff felt threatened by him, although his status as acquitted of all charges and guest at Hogwarts kept him at a safe distance from what one could call for danger. This speaks for how likely it is that he was on good terms with the Death Eaters.
As for the "Charms" point, while it is stated that Durmstrang has at least some protective enchantments, it is never stated that Karkaroff himself cast them. In Goblet of Fire, Krum says that Karkaroff made the students do all the work on the ship while he just stayed in his cabin, so it could just as easily be assumed that he made someone else do the work on Durmstrang's enchantments.
Those situations are completely incomparable. Igor Karkaroff was Highmaster at Durmstrang Institute, and since he were the head of the school, it means that people higher up in the system would have certain expectations of him. It was his job to protect and watch over Durmstrang. He mistreated his students, granted, and seemed to care more about the school he controlled than the students in it, but the school is still his responsibility. The fact that Karkaroff got students to operate a ship while lounging in his cabin just means that he was fond of power and gladly delegated tasks he found less enticing, but the school was still his responsibility as Highmaster. While Durmstrang might not have been as well protected as Hogwarts because Dumbledore was by far the superior wizard, that is one thing, but Karkaroff actually said to Dumbledore: "Well, Dumbledore, we are all protective of our private domains, are we not? Do we not jealously guard the halls of learning that have been entrusted to us?"
Igor Karkaroff must have been, if not the most skilled wizard around, at least competent with protective enchantments, or else he would not have been deemed fit to head it, since he would be incapable of keeping it safe from threats.
I also believe it was written somewhere that there are spells to help people go into hiding, which is true. However, the effectiveness of a protective spell only works corresponding to the practitioner's ability to use them. Karkaroff had been poor in defensive magic would Alastor Moody's mastery of Stealth and Tracking made him able to locate Karkaroff in less than half a year. As we all very well knows, Moody filled half the cells in Azkaban by himself, and Karkaroff was among the last the caught, and that's saying something.
“Crouch is going to let him out,” Moody breathed quietly to Dumbledore. “He’s done a deal with him. Took me six months to track him down, and Crouch is going to let him go if he’s got enough new names. Let’s hear his information, I say, and throw him straight back to the dementors.” - Alastor Moody.
The fact that Igor Karkaroff was targeted by the greatest Auror the Ministry have had for a very long time shows that he, if not as talented as the likes of Dolohov and Bellatrix, was a considerably skillful, as he were able to catch the eye of the most skilled Aurors of them all, and even made said Auror spend six entire months with him in mind. This speaks for Karkaroff's Death Eater activity and say something about his role there, as he made Moody of all people so determined to catch him.
PS; I wasn't the one writing Dolohv held Karkaroff in high regard, I wrote they were on good terms. Someone edited what I wrote.
Simen Johannes Fagerli - the admins have spoken; it's speculation. Do us all a favour and SHUT! THE! HELL! UP! They are right - you are wrong; if I was in this position, I would have been blocked - or blocked you if you'd been on the wiki I run - so be thankful you're still here! HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 22:15, October 27, 2013 (UTC)
"The Admins have spoken, it's speculation"? Sorry, but with all due respect buddy, it almost sounds like you are in the belief that administrators have the opportunity to dictate what defines the term speculation. They haven't. And I'm sure that both you and they agree. To ban me for having different opinions than them would undermine what this wiki stand for, and likewise they would not ban you either, should you have other opinions than they have. And in any case, we're merely having a discussion. It might be somewhat tideous, sure, but we're just discussing. No reason to get all worked up about it. Besides, what I wrote here was not speculations, it was taken right out from the fourth book. Be so angry you want, but I'm sure Nick, whether he agrees or disagrees with the points I wrote above, whether he see or don't see holes in my arguments, we both know that this is a civilized discussion. I have, whether I agree with Nick or not, a lot of respect for him and the great efforts he and the rest of you make on this wiki, making it this great online HP lexicon it is today. So I know that we can discuss this with calmness and reason, being the sensible adults we are. Therefore, I'm patiently going to wait for Nick's reply when he have read through what I wrote. Also, I'd like you to remember that he agreed - somewhat irritable, I'm sure, - to hear me out. So... There you have it. Relax, mate, it's just an exchange of opinions. I think I'm right, and now that I'm finally taken the time to properly explain why, I'm sure Nick will respond in due time. :-) User:Simen Johannes Fagerli
- HarryPotterRules1, while you're right about it being speculation if it isn't written on the page or said by J. K. Rowling or specifically filmed, you do need to watch your temper, and with that your language. Whilst Hell is a page on here, "Shut the hell up" isn't appropriate in a discussion.
- Simen Johannes Fagerli, it matters not how talented a wizard was, the Aurors were after everyone who might possibly have allied themselves with Voldemort, and yes that includes the weak ones like Karkaroff. Lucius would almost certainly have cared more about the school's belief in purity than the magical skill of its owner, and there's no proof that he was selected for the post of Highmaster based on his charms ability - if he was indeed selected at all, which is never explicitly stated. --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 22:53, October 27, 2013 (UTC)
- The claim that "He earned Lucius Malfoy's respect, as Malfoy would not have considered sending Draco to a school headed by someone he looked down upon or disliked, regardless of wether the school accept Muggle-Borns or not" is especially ridiculous, as Lucius did send Draco to a school headed by someone he looked down upon (to the n-th power). -- 00:14, October 28, 2013 (UTC)
- No, Malfoy never truely looked down on Dumbledore. If you re-read the books, I think you'd realize that since Dumbledore's the only one Voldemort ever feared and head of the Order, he was to great of an advesary to look down on, although it's true Malfoy despised Dumbledore for his fairness for Muggles and Muggle-Borns, but that would in that case be different kind of . Had Wormtail and Karkaroff been considered equally incompetent and he was as mistreated as the first one mentioned, it's unlikely, through the way Malfoy in represented in the books, that he'd send Draco there under Karkaroff's headship, as he would be inclined to think that the quality of Durmstrang would be reduced under Karkaroff's regime. He wouldn't send Draco there because it was a man he viewed as a little more than a servant, had Karkaroff and Wormtail been equally low-ranking. Can you imagine Malfoy even considering sending his son to Durmstrang if Wormtail headed it?
- Also, calling Karkaroff magically weak would be more of a quesswork than my logical conclusions made out of info from the fourth book. As we don't know much about him, we'd rather be saying he's likely to be less skilled. in your opinion. User:Simen Johannes Fagerli