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Consistency in Magical Family Articles

I apologize for previous stepping over boundaries by having this article redirect to another article before first discussing it. I have noticed a few inconsitencies in articles about magical families, and I would like to suggest one consistent standard. For example, the article on the Malfoy family is simply Malfoy. The Weasley family has (or had) two articles: Weasley and Weasley family. And this article about the Blacks is titled House of Black. In order to maintain a consistent naming convention, I would like to propose that all magical family name articles be listed under the surname only. In this case, the House of Black article would change to just "Black". Other possiblities include using "House of (familyname)" or "(familyname) Family", as long as all articles are consistent. Suggestions? --Wydok 06:17, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that this particular article has an exception. The House of Black is more like a legacy than just a family name. Malfoy and Weasley both branch off from there. I agree that Weasley should just be Weasley without the family but House of Black is appropriate, I believe. What's more, JKR actually calls it this in OotP so it fits. Mafalda Hopkirk 22:59, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps, we should use the format Wikipedia uses: Weasley (surname), Malfoy (surname), Black (surname), and the alike. 24.49.35.99 21:35, August 8, 2010 (UTC)
With the exception of maybe "House of Black", simply because JRK specifically refers to them as such, I think that it at the very least the titles should be "Weasley Family" "Malfoy Family" etc. I think that if you just title Malfoy Family, "Malfoy", it could be misleading because in the books Draco is often times referred to as just "Malfoy". So if the page is about the entire family then using the formula "[surname] family" works. At that point "House of Black" would be the only one that doesn't match and that just depends on how canonical you want to be. On the other hand, the tree is referred to as "black family tree", so would it be that much a stretch to title the family page as "Black Family" instead of "House of Black", because it's not titled the "House of Black family tree". So as far as uniformity across wikia, if "House of Black" stays as such, then the family tree should probably be titled "House of Black family tree". --BachLynn23 14:06, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
I think all family articles should be named "[familyname] family" with the exception of this one. A "House" is a familial designation officially used by dynasts (i.e. a royal House). Thus, this would be the case (indicating that the Black family was perhaps a family of dynasts, possibly connected with the Wizards' Council or other prior governing body) and therefore the official designation of the family would be "House of Black" and not "Black family". The style used by this House (The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black or, as seen in the films, En Stirps Nobilis et Gens Antiquissima Black) seems to support this, as most noble Houses use a similar style (see House of Braganza - The Most Serene House of Braganza). Not to mention the term "House" is specifically used in the books (and by JKR herself). --  Seth Cooper  owl post! 14:55, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Redirected

What about merging House of Black with Black Family Tree article?Mafalda Hopkirk 20:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

They probably should be merged - they're about the same thing (The Black Family). -- DarkJedi613 (Talk) 20:30, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Is it ok to move it or should i wait? Mafalda Hopkirk 21:40, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Usually before doing any major page work - page move, merge, split, etc. - its good to wait a few days to see if there is any differing opinions and any necessary discussion. -- DarkJedi613 (Talk) 04:54, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, i hope it's ok i moved it. i just got so excited.Mafalda Hopkirk 04:55, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Category?

Doesn't the category "Members of the House of Black" seem a little redundant? Is there possibly a different category to list this under, such as wizarding families or something? Mafalda Hopkirk 18:50, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

No, many familes are under their own category. This is not the only article in that category - all the family members are also a part of that category (if you click the link you'll see). Members of the House of Black Category is in a Category called Wizard families. -- DarkJedi613 (Talk) 22:11, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the explanation! Mafalda Hopkirk 22:57, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Pretty much its just more organized this way by putting things into many many small sub categories. If you ever want to see how they're set up check out the Category Tree. -- DarkJedi613 (Talk) 23:00, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


Two Trees?

Has anyone else noticed that there appear to have been two trees produced for the film of OOTP? On Bellatrix's page you can see a depiction of Helena Bonham-Carter as Bellatrix, but there's another family tree picture where it's a more generic-looking picture with a notation of Bellatrix 1951- and Rodolphus Lestrange. I noticed ages ago that there are two versions for Andromeda's entry on the tree in the film too: one Just has "Andromeda" and a burn mark, and another has a rather more crude hole and "Andromeda = Ted Tonks" Thoughts? Comments? Tim 79.74.25.101 22:25, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

The two versions of the tree come from different sources: for example, File:Andromeda Black.jpg is from the menu opening sequence on Disc 2 of the Order of the Phoenix DVD, while File:Andromeda Black Family Tree.jpg is from the actual scene with Sirius in the film. The version of the tree in the menu opening sequence appears clean and smooth, like digital art, whereas the one in the film is obviously textile. I'm guessing that the production staff drew the tree in Photoshop, had this graphic printed or woven on real fabric, and then installed this fabric onto the walls of the Grimmauld Place set. The digital art was probably reused as the menu opening sequence on Disc 2 of the DVD. As for the differences between the two versions, the digital art was probably created early in production, before they had any pictures of Helena Bonham Carter in costume to use. The production team probably added Helena in later when it came time to make the real tapestry for the set. Starstuff (Owl me!) 08:24, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Alexia Walkin wasn't a relative by marriage, she was Alexia Black, but she married some Walkin.--Lord 10:55, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

No, actually Walkin was her middle name, like Phineas Nigellus Black. User:Hap

Phineas removed from family tree?

I looked a deleted scene of the black family tree and I saw that Phineas was removed. I think it's not Phineas Nigellus Black, but someone else. It was black, there was no picture. Or this is a blooper. She was to left from Bellatrix.--Station7 22:05, October 28, 2009 (UTC)

The Phineas you are talking about is not Phineas Nigellus Black, but Phineas Black, Phineas Nigellus's son who was disowned for supporting Muggle rights. --  Seth Cooper  owl post! 22:13, October 28, 2009 (UTC)


Grandparents?

Why are there not the grandparents and the parents from Phineas Nigellus Black on the family tree?--Station7 11:01, October 29, 2009 (UTC)

Well, the Black family tree contains names dating back to the Middle Ages (according to Order of the Phoenix). You didn't really expect Rowling to draw such a big family tree. However, in the film's family tree contains some of Phineas's ancestors. --  Seth Cooper  owl post! 11:23, October 29, 2009 (UTC)
Phineas Nigellus' parents are Cygnus Black I and Ella Max (Cygnus' siblings are Arcturus Black I and Misapinoa Black who married Jimbo Blishwick). Cygnus' parents are Mr Black and Mrs Tripe (Mr Black's siblings are Phoebe Black, Alexia Walkin Black, Black and Eduardus Limette Black, who was disowned).
Happychickenvermin!!! 23:11, December 19, 2010 (UTC)

Past tense?

Since the name itself is extinct after the death of Sirius, should we change all references to the Black name to be in the past tense? As in "the House of Black was" rather than "the House of Black is..." --Parodist 15:10, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

Technically any article referring to people or events should be written in past tense, per this wikia's policy see: Forum:Past/Present tense?. --BachLynn23 17:17, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

Title of Article

Some of the article are shown full name in the title:

A title should only say first name and surname.

In Phineas' case it is very confusing cause Phineas Nigellus had a son named Phineas. Also please remember to sign comments.
Happychickenvermin!!! 23:12, December 19, 2010 (UTC)

Melania Macmillan

The Black family tree that the Lexicon has spells Melania's last name as 'Mcmillan', without the 'a', different from Ernie 'Macmillan'. Is there a source for her last name being 'Macmillan' instead of 'Mcmillan'? If not, then it is quite possibly the 'Macmillans' are not at all related to the Blacks, though they are a pureblood family. LemonFairy 03:05, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

Weasleys

i noticed that there are no Weasley on the tree and Sirius said the all pure-blood familys are related and the Weasleys are pure-bloods72.222.147.74 05:42, November 9, 2010 (UTC)Griffin87912

Arthur Weasley' parents are Cedrella Black and Septimus Weasley. He married Lucretia Black and Ignatius Prewett's niece (Molly). The Malfoys are on the tree even though they aren't supposed to. Araminta Meliflua is mentioned on the tree in the books but is'nt there in the movies. The tree contains everyone who had/has the last name Black. Happychickenvermin!!! 23:16, December 19, 2010 (UTC)

Editing

Why does the article say

House of Black is a featured article, which means it has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Harry Potter Wiki community. If you see a way this page can be updated or improved without compromising previous work, please feel free to contribute.

but some users are not allowed to contribute?

Happychickenvermin 23:35, December 11, 2010 (UTC)

Classmate's Mistake

One of the people in my class asked me "Who is Sirius Black(III)'s mother's great-great-great-grandfather?" I said I didn't know and she said "Sirius Black(I)!"

This is totally wrong, as the first Sirius Black is Walburga's, Orion's, Cygnus'(and Druella's(Cygnus' wife) by marriage) and Alphard's great-great-uncle and Sirius', Regulus', Bella's, Dromeda's and Cissy's great-great-great-uncle.

86.134.46.186 16:06, April 15, 2011 (UTC)notsignedupC.N.Malfoy(from the Harry Potter Fanon Wiki)

Sirius III's mother was Walburga. Her grandfather was Cygnus Black II. Now, three generations ahead (great-great-great-grandfather) would be Unidentified Black (I). Btw, since Orion and Walburga are married and are second cousins (same great-grandfather), Orion's great-great-great-grandfather would be the same person.

Happychickenvermin!!!

The Potter's on the Tree

The family tree picture, it should not have the Potters on it as they were not on the original tree and evidence seems to say that that was NOT Harry's grandmother and grandfather. Could someone please fix it? I tried to, but my edit was deleted. (Sev Lover Forever 04:26, June 26, 2011 (UTC))

Charlus and Dorea Potter and were included on the Black family JKR drew up for the charity auction in 2006, but to date, they haven't been confirmed as Jame's parents (and thus Harry's grandparents). The family tree picture makes it clear James being this couple's son is only speculation: "one son, possibly James Potter". Charlus and Dorea had an unnamed son listed on JKR's tree, leading to the speculation about James. Starstuff (Owl me!) 21:25, June 26, 2011 (UTC)
Yes, but the Weasley's are on the tree as well, and they wern't added, even though the dates fit so that they would be Arthur's parents. It's supposed to be unbiased, and speculation is not part of the canon tree. (Sev Lover Forever 01:51, June 27, 2011 (UTC))
If Charlus and Dorea Potter were close relatives of Harry, then Sirius would surely have pointed them out as they were discussing the tapestry in OotP. Circumstantial, yes, but evidence nonetheless. Oftenl8 (talk) 05:48, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

Who is the current (Post-Series) head of the House?

Is it Harry, by means of inheriting from the last surviving male heir?Gojirob 03:11, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Harry inherited all of it, but there is no mention of a "Head of House" in canon - that's a fanon invention. Oftenl8 (talk) 05:53, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

Middle Ages

The Black family tree is displayed in the drawing room of the family home at 12 Grimmauld Place in London, England on an intricate tapestry, as an ornate mural. It starts in the Middle Ages and shows the dominant line of the family up to the present day.[2]

This statement is not correct in that the earliest listing of the tree is Licorus Black in 1808

The family may go back to the Middle Ages (500 to 1500) but the tapestry does not````

In OotP it says the tapestry goes back seven centuries, but JKR's drawing does not include the entire tapestry - it would obviously be too cumbersome. Oftenl8 (talk) 05:33, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

Wealthy or Not?

I find no evidence that the Black Family was particularly wealthy, certainly not in the same category as the Lestrange or Malfoy families that the Black girls married into. Why else would they live at Grimmauld Place? Their title "Noble and Most Ancient House" was probably self-invented, just as their motto is a study in irony. They stayed "Always Pure" by disowning any member of the family they deemed unworthy. Comments? Oftenl8 (talk) 05:41, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

Well, three things. The first is that they have a tradition of having house elves, and Ron Weasley states that you normally only find those in families with a lot of money. (Though, admittedly, why this would be so isn't entirely clear, since house-elves don't get paid.) Secondly, I think you're forgetting that prior to Kreacher's having let things go, Grimmauld Place was actually a pretty cushy residence. Thirdly, the Blacks clearly possessed a number of expensive wizarding relics, which I don't think they would have had without being at least somewhat wealthy themselves. ProfessorTofty (talk) 06:57, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
While everything you state is true, I don't find myself convinced. First, I don't consider Ron Weasley's opinion to be authoritative on anything beyond Quidditch and chess. JKR usually had Hermione say something if it was to be taken as gospel. Twelve Grimmauld Place may have been "cushy" at one time, but it's only a terrace house, not a landed manor. None of the rooms must be very large if they always meet in the basement kitchen. And after several centuries, one would expect the Blacks to have collected a few expensive things, just as any upper middle class family would. Dumbledore said in HBP that Harry inherited "a reasonable amount of gold" as the entirety of the Black liquid estate, which doesn't tell us much either. In OotP, Sirius never claimed the Blacks were rich, only sneering that his parents' pure-blood mania made them "convinced that to be a Black you were practically royal" reinforcing the idea that they were snobs of the highest order, and not necessarily due to wealth. Don't you find it ironic that the most mentioned Black ancestor is also known as Hogwarts' worst headmaster? Oftenl8 (talk) 14:39, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

Infobox name

I thought, at some point, the title of the family's infobox was not just the House of Black, but the Most Honorable and Ancient House of Black. Please correct me if I'm wrong and change the infobox title back.

KyranEllis (talk) 18:57, September 29, 2013 (UTC)KyranEllisKyranEllis (talk) 18:57, September 29, 2013 (UTC)

It was "The Ancient and Most Noble House of Black", I believe. --HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 20:27, July 3, 2014 (UTC)

Question

GSnitch This discussion is listed as an Active Talk Page.
Please remove this template when the question has been answered.

Can we remove the "possibly" from the ancestors of Phineas Nigellus? Above Phineas Nigellus there are three known people - Misaponia, who married Jimbo Blishwick; Cygnus, who married Ella Max and Arcturus who never married.

Thus, the only possible people who can be Phineas Nigellus's are Cygnus and Ella; Misaponia's children - if she had any, which doesn't appear to have happened - would take Blishwick as a surname and Arcturus had no children.

Also, above Cygnus I we have Licorus and Magenta. They must be Cygnus's parents as the only other male around the same time as Licorus was his (probable) brother, Eduardus Limette... who was disowned.

Thus, by being disowned, Eduardus cannot be the father of Cygnus I - disowned people's descendants do not appear on the tree (Andromeda was disowned and Sirius expressly states that Tonks does not appear on the tree, despite being Andromeda's child) - thus, the only way everyone can be related is if:

  • Licorus married Magenta and they had Cygnus
  • Cygnus married Ella and they had Phineas
  • rest of tree is currently known. --HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 20:27, July 3, 2014 (UTC)

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