I have amended the date of Hepzibah Smith's death, from 1942 to 1946. Since Tom Riddle attended Hogwarts from 1938 to 1945 and he is alleged to have murdered Hepzibah while working for Borgin and Burkes then 1942 is too soon. Dumbledore states that his memory of his interveiw with Riddle taked place ten years after the Hepzibah Smith memory. Riddle congratulates Dumbledore for being appointed Headmaster, and this appointment occured in 1956. Therefore the Hepzibah Smith memory must be 1946. As she died two days later, her death must occur in 1946. --Potty Harrer 03:26, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Do we have any source that she was in Hufflepuff? The fact she is descended from Helga doesn't necessarly mean that she was in that House. --Parodist 19:17, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
I've changed it to the general wizard individual infobox. Jayden Matthews 19:49, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Image of Slytherin locket
The image of Salazar Slytherin's locket looks like it's actually Regulus Black's locket. I can't see the "S" (which seems to be the only way to distinguish the two lockets from each other by appearance). Could it be replaced with another image that is more obviously of Slytherin's locket? 188.8.131.52 03:09, October 16, 2011 (UTC)
- Fixed. Specifically, the image was of the Noble Collection's R.A.B. locket. 1337star 03:40, October 16, 2011 (UTC)
Not a muggle-born?
Wouldn't it be possible that she can be a muggle born, despite being descended from Helga Hufflepuff? JK Rowling did say that muggle borns are descended from squibs and it is likely that there could've been a squib somewhere in Helga Hufflepuff's descent that Hepzibah Smith can come from.184.108.40.206 17:07, August 3, 2012 (UTC)
Year of Death
I think we need to revisit the idea of when Hepzibah died. I don't know where c. 1946 came from. Tom left school in 1945. The books don't tell us how much time went by before Tom started working at Borgin and Burkes, but I don't think it was more than a year since Dumbledore says "the next thing we knew". Another book tells us he went searching for Ravenclaw's Diadem when he left school, so Tom may have started working there in 1946.
By the time Tom meets with Hepzibah, Dumbledore gives no idea of how much time went by. I don't think it was only a year. I think more than a year went by. I think it could actually be several years, since the way Tom and Hepzibah talk shows us he had been working at Borgin and Burkes for a considerable amount of time, enough for Tom to have met with Hepzibah many times and for her to get the idea they "overwork you in that shop". Enough time had gone by for them they build up some kind of "friendship" and for him to bring her flowers, and for him to have brought many objects from her. It may have been c. 1950 or even a few years after then. We don't know how long Tom worked at Borgin and Burkes for. I have started a discussion over on Dumbledore's talk page (I am the same Kates29 there, but I got locked out my account so I'm Kates39 now), about the year Dumbledore became Headteacher. Everyone had already decided it was c. 1957 but the book doesn't say that. It was vaguely deduced by the sixth book and the year McGonagall started working there, but I think it's wrong. Apparently, since Hepzibah died in 1946 (again, don't know where that came from), and the next memory Dumbledore shows Harry happened ten years later, shortly after McGonagall started working at Hogwarts, we deduced it was 1956. However, we don't know when Hepzibah died in the first place, so it could have been later than 1946 and therefore Dumbledore's memory was after 1956. We have a much clearer quote in the third book which may change this.
Lupin says that he never thought he would be able to attend Hogwarts until Dumbledore became Headteacher. Lupin was born in March 1959, three years after we said Dumbledore became Headteacher. But Lupin pretty much tells us Dumbledore became Headteacher in his own lifetime, sometime after he became a Werewolf when he was five. Therefore, Dumbledore became Headteacher c. 1965, Hepzibah died ten years earlier in c. 1955, Tom left school and worked at Borgin and Burkes from 1946 to c. 1955, before he left, went travelling, became Voldemort and returned to Hogwarts c. 1965 with a reptuation already and a very changed appearance when he enquires to Dumbledore about teaching there again. This way, it makes everything fit. I haven't found anything which may prove this wrong yet, but any help is welcome! I have been trying to piece everything together, and I think what Lupin says is correct. Therefore, Hepzibah died much later than c. 1946. I will not change anything until someone gives me the okay. --Kates39 (talk), 15:43, July 25, 2016 (UTC)
- I agree with this. I think the evidence is fairly clear that many events in Voldemort's post-Hogwarts life happened a lot later than many think. Lets work backward. I think there are strong reasons to believe his visit in Dumbledore's office happened around 1970 (if for no other reason, with the curse on the DADA job, there would not have been nearly enough people in the UK to teach the subject for 35+ years with a new teacher every year.) If this is the case, working backwards, his theft of the cup would have had to have happened around 1960. (Dumbledore references 10 years between Hepzibah and his visit to Dumbledore's office.) This means he was working as a salesman for well over a decade. I also don't think it is reasonable to assume that Voldemort was in open rebellion against the ministry for over 20 years. Again, way too many casualties. At the rate he was killing wizards (and muggles) there would not have been anyone left in the UK.
- Now, some might argue that Voldemort's words when he went to Dumbledore's office indicate that it had to have happened shortly after Dumbledore became headmaster. His "congratulations" would have been just as appropriate even if Dumbledore had become headmaster over a decade earlier - as long as he had not spoken to Dumbledore before then. And I think there is more than enough evidence to conclude that is likely since Voldemort avoided Dumbledore like the plague. Wva (talk) 16:01, July 25, 2016 (UTC)
- In looking at this over the last few days, others have raised this issue previously (Talk:Albus_Dumbledore/Archive2#Pottermore & dates or Talk:Armando Dippet#Biography) but Kates found the quote that nails it down. I've asked User:Seth Cooper about his thoughts as he's shown an aptitude for timeline math before, but ultimately I think we will need to change Dumbledore's start as headmaster to between Mar 1965 (the attack on Lupin) and Mar 1971 (Albus is headmaster when he visits Lupin "shortly before Remus's eleventh birthday" Writing by J.K. Rowling: "Remus Lupin" at Pottermore) and Hepzibah Smith's death to between 1955 and 1961 (10 years before based on Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, Chapter 20 (Lord Voldemort's Request)). I'm not a fan of trying to guess a year within this timeframe without clear evidence (as that is partly how we got into this mess ;) I know Armando Dippet's page will also need to be updated as this affects this tenure as Headmaster (I've been planning on cleaning this article up anyways as there are many other problems), but can anyone think of other pages that would be impacted so they are updated as well when this timeline change is made? Cheers --Ironyak1 (talk) 16:50, July 25, 2016 (UTC)
- Tom Riddle's page will have to be changed a bit. We have put the meeting with Dumbledore under the heading "1944-1950s" but it will have to be put under the heading "The Rise of the Dark Lord (1950s-1970s)". Hokey's page needs some minor changes too since it says the murder happened "during the 1940s". There is also the 1940s page, which puts c. 1946 as the date of death. The 1950s page too, since it says that Armando Dippet's tenure ended in 1957 and Tom met with Dumbledore then too. We would have to update the 1960s and the 1970s page. Dumbledore's too of course. The Headmaster's page. I agree we should n't give a particular date. We should put circa a year, or between, or "around" such a year. Should be easy enough once we get started and we might then stumble across some other pages which need updating too! :) --Kates39 (talk), 17:09, July 25, 2016 (UTC)
- This interpretation of Lupin's line in Prisoner of Azkaban actually seems to be rock-solid reasoning, which had been sadly overlooked on this issue. Hepzibah Smith's "circa 1946" death date comes from Half-Blood Prince's chapter 20, which seems to imply that Voldemort started working at Borgin and Burked immediately after being refused a job at Hogwarts by Dippet, but Kates39's point that we don't know how much time elapsed seems to be sound.
- With that in mind, it does seem that Dumbledore began his tenure as Headmaster sometime between around March 1965 and around March 1971, and if that is the case, Hepzibah would have been killed sometime between 1955 and 1961 (I should note that Tom Riddle's page did, at one point, say that Voldemort's visit to Hogwarts took place on 10 November 1971, based on the date on one of the memory flasks seen in the Half-Blood Prince film; I was the one who removed it, after someone expressed their concerns on the article's talk page -- that would fit nicely with this revised timeline). -- 20:58, July 25, 2016 (UTC)
- Interesting about the vial date! If we restore this image, then we have a pretty solid date of 1961 for the death of Hepzibah Smith, and the likelyhood that Dumbledore became headmaster close to 1971 (Voldemort saying that he had heard Albus was made headmaster as part of the reason for his visit). The POA book quote helps back up this film prop very well!
- I would say the timeline is ready to be shifted! I would like to tackle Armando Dippet for the related changes as there are other issues I want to sort out. Good work everyone! --Ironyak1 (talk) 21:10, July 25, 2016 (UTC)
- Just to follow-up on the vial, I found a wider-angle image which appears to have a vial marked "Tom Riddle Spring '76"(?) which means that the 10-11-71 vial may not be the Voldemort's Request meeting (or they had a subsequent meeting not discussed with Harry?). Regardless, it presents some conflicting evidence for specifying the meeting date and subsequently Hepzibah Smith's date of death beyond the range given from the POA quote. Just wanted to add it for the record for future editors to discuss. Cheers --Ironyak1 (talk) 00:06, July 26, 2016 (UTC)
- One small thing that, to me, seems odd and relates to this. Why was McGonagall hired mid-year? To me that screams that Dippet was already dying (which would fit the d. 1957 we had!) and that McGonagall was hired to be Dumbledore's replacement ready for when Dippet did die, while Dumbledore was already being groomed to be Dippet's successor. The Lexicon states 1955 too. --HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 01:39, August 2, 2016 (UTC)
So HPL says c. 1955 - circa meaning around (I usually think of this as plus or minus 2 but there is not a strict interpretation.) We know it has to after Dec 1956 from McGonagall's statements. HPL appears not to have connected the dots between Lupin's POA speech and his Pottermore info like Kates39 did. If you drop them a comment in their Pensieve area they are good about replying (I had a nice chat with Steve Vander Ark about a mistake they had in Riddle's timeline recently this way so it can be quite informative and fun). Cheers --Ironyak1 (talk) 02:52, August 2, 2016 (UTC)