I figured this'd be easier than constantly leaving edit notes arguing. I'm not saying you're wrong HarryPotterRules1, I'm just saying that things aren't always as they seem. For example, the whole "Cadogan-MUST-have-taken-his-father's-surname-because-everyone-else-did" thing. True, she hasn't provided an example, but we don't know the surnames of every parent and we therefore don't know if there is an example that we just don't know about. And even so, I think we should leave it ambiguous, rather than assuming that just because most people take their father's surname, everyone does. --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 00:02, May 24, 2013 (UTC)
- While I see your point, if J.K. showed something - gay people, coloured people, mentally damaged people, werewolves, half-bloods, muggleborns, racism, incest - in the HP universe then she would provide an example: Gay, Dumbledore; coloured person, Dean; mentally damaged people, Frank and Alice; Werewolves, Fenrir and Lupin; half-bloods, Harry and Seamus; Muggleborns, Lily and Hermione; Racism, "mudblood", "Blood traitor"; incest, Black Family Tree. Since she has given no examples we must, until further information becomes available - through J.K. Rowling, the Encyclopedia and Pottermore - assume that Cadogan, based on what I have shown above, took his father's surname. HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 00:30, May 24, 2013 (UTC)
- It appears Seth also agrees that we shouldn't be putting it in without a valid source. I think that all and any mention of a surname should be left out, to use your words, "until further information becomes available - through J.K.Rowling, the Encyclopedia and Pottermore". --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 00:38, May 24, 2013 (UTC)
- What can't be proven here, is that Sir Cadogan's father was Welsh/Irish. Even if the surname is of Welsh or Irish origin, one cannot conclude that they - Cadogan and his father - are indeed Welsh or Irish. The surname might've originated with one of their ancestors (in Wales or Ireland), but they might not be from round those parts any more. I, for one, (and I'm talking about my real name, here, not my Wiki-pseudonym) have a double-barrelled surname with a French part and a Spanish-origin part and, as far as I know, no one in my family ever since the mid-to-late 19th century has been from those countries. -- 00:48, May 24, 2013 (UTC)
While that may be true, your ancestors were French and Spanish; this means, albiet distantly, that you are French and Spanish; it's still in your blood and the name continues, so it's there; it's the same with Cadogan. He might only be 1/567th Welsh/Irish, but it is still there in his ancestry, making him - and in turn his father and children who bare the Cadogan name - Irish/Welsh. That's why I added it in the first place. It might be a distant descent from a Welsh/Irishman in the 1100s, but the Welsh/Irish bit is still there; whatever the case, whether it be Cadogan's father as an Irish/Welshman or Cadogan's 600 times great-grandfather on the male Cadogan line, he is - and always will be - Welsh/Irish in some distant form. HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 00:59, May 24, 2013 (UTC)
So, should we add, in the Harry Potter article, that he was an African wizard? As the fossil record shows us that the first hominids originated in Africa about 200 thousand years ago, then all articles on human beings should be put in the "African individuals" category. This is ludicrous, of course. Naturality denotes the particular bond between a person and a state (usually, but not always, their birthplace). If no such bond can be proven, then to state it is potentially misleading and unnecessary. -- 01:08, May 24, 2013 (UTC)
As I was saying; here is a picture to prove my point. In this example, I have gone with the fact that Caodgan is ONLY Welsh just to show how distant means it's still there.
So you are saying that because the first humans were from Africa, so I would be African due to the distant heritage? Everyone else says I am Métis due to an Aboriginal father and a Scottish mother. But despite it being distant, I still have African in me and so AM African. That is what you're saying, and I personally (no offence is meant) find it ridiculous. --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 01:33, May 24, 2013 (UTC)
Basically, it's like this; we're all African, but only distantly - over 2000+ years the lines have become diluted, adding in Spanish, French, Italian, Scottish, Aboriginies, etc, and make us look like we are today.
- Below is a chart for Bob, to show Bob's descent.
- Bob is 1/64 Irish.
- Bob's mother is 1/32 Irish
- Bob's grandmother is 1/16 Irish
- Bob's great grandmother is 1/8 Irish
- Bob's great-great-grandmother is 1/4 Irish
- Bob's great-great-great-grandmother is 1/2 Irish
- Bob's great-great-great-grandmother is fully Irish.
- Due to the distance in descent - 2000+ years - We're all something like 1/10000000000000000000000000th African by now.
- The same applies for Cadogan; it's a distant relation, but still there. That is why I said, the name Cadogan is Welsh/Irish, and Cadogan is distantly Welsh/Irish as his his father, grandfather and so on. Every male who had "Cadogan" for a surname is distantly Welsh/Irish.HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 01:43, May 24, 2013 (UTC)
- Edit conflict: You have simply ignored my counter-argument about all wizards being African, following your logic. I shall make my meaning plainer.
- You should've realised by now that I'm not questioning their ancestry, merely the relevance of such ancestry. There are plenty of real-life examples. If you call David Ricardo a Portuguese political economist or Immanuel Kant a Scottish philosopher, just because they had Portuguese and Scottish ancestry, respectively, you'd be laughed at. They are affiliated with their own countries of origin far more than that of their ancestors (let's take your diagrams as an example. Imagine Sir Cadogan was born in London: he'd be 100% Londoner, and 6,25% Welsh -- which one would you honestly think would take precedence?).
- Besides, your diagram is entirely misleading. One does not have just one parent, one grandparent, and one great-grandparent: as the number of ancestors increases geometrically, the ratios would become smaller and smaller and smaller. Indeed, he would be far less than 1/16 Welsh, if the original Cadogan was more generations away from him.
- By the way, I resent your choice of title for the picture. I think it was somewhat unfortunate. There's no need to "prove anyone wrong" when you are having a polite exchange of arguments. But oh well. -- 01:47, May 24, 2013 (UTC)
I did also say earlier that the diagram was merely a diagram and he probably had a MUCH MORE DISTANT ancestor and, actually, Seth, you're wrong there; he would ALWAYS be 1/16th Welsh, however, he'd also be 1/however many descent his mother is from another. E.g. if his mother is 1/32 Spanish, then Cadogan will be 1/16th Welsh and 1/64th Spanish. See? And, actually, Seth, birthplace has nothing to do with it. I was born in Kettering, but live in Market Harborough, and have for all my life except for 2 weeks while we moved; I am a Harborough lad, born and bred. NOT a Kettering lad. See? HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 01:54, May 24, 2013 (UTC)
- That's my whole point! I used birthplace for the sake of simplicity, but yes, one's Irish, Welsh, etc. if and only if one associates strongly with Ireland, Wales, etc. either by birth or by living there. Ancestry (even moreso remote ancestry), while acknowledged, is not relevant in the matter: you'd still be a Harborough lad even if all your great-grandparents lived in Kettering. We have no evidence that Sir Cadogan's father hailed from, lived, or is in any way apart from surname associated with Wales, so, to state it on the article is wrong. -- 02:00, May 24, 2013 (UTC)
- Beelzebub's Bogbrush, for the love of Merlin's saggy left a**cheek! I never said he was from Wales/Ireland, I said he was Welsh or Irish (e.g. of Welsh or Irish DESCENT!) That was why I kept adding it back in! He is of Welsh/Irish descent - because the name is Welsh/Irish - but only distantly and may never have been to Wales in his life; his son, Cadogan, probably has, since ancient Arthurian Legends say that Camelot was in Wales, but that's not important.
- What's important is that Cadogan and his father and his kids, even if they have never set foot in Wales or Ireland, are through descent, Welsh/Irish. Which is what I put in the "Cadogan's Father" article. See? HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 02:08, May 24, 2013 (UTC)
- But having Welsh/Irish ancestry doesn't make one Welsh/Irish! Would Garrick Ollivander be a Briton or a Roman? A Briton, of course, even though he had Roman ancestors (maaaany generations back). We could potentially have a similar scenario in the case of Cadogan's father. We just don't know, the information we have is too sparse.
- By the way, as much as I do appreciate colourful imagery, I'd try to keep it to a minimum. No matter the hour, this page can be accessed anywhere, at any time. -- 02:18, May 24, 2013 (UTC)
- Actually, having ancestry - which is IN YOUR BLOOD - does make you that. If you have an Irish ancestor, then you are distantly Irish; as the name Cadogan is Irish/Welsh Cadogan has a distant ancestor who was Irish/Welsh; this makes him distantly Irish/Welsh.
- This, as I have stated EVERY SINGLE FREAKING TIME YOU KEPT REMOVING IT, is why I added it; it's only distant, but he IS Irish/Welsh. Admittedly, the link could be from a few hundred years ago, but it makes him still Irish/Welsh despite the distance.
- You have French ancestry, so in your blood you will always be French - as will your children and their children and so on and so forth - even if you never go there, but with each generation it's more and more diluted. HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 02:23, May 24, 2013 (UTC)
- But that distance, that dilution, often causes it for people to stop being identified with their ancestors' nationality, as it is the case of Ollivander. While he is, unequivocally and undoubtedly, a direct descendant of Ancient Roman wizards, referring to him as an Italian would be a severe mistake; he's a Briton with Roman ancestry, not a Roman that happens to live/have been born/operate/you name it in Britain. And when you think about it, the percentage of people living today that does not have an Ancient Roman ancestor must be quite small.
- That could be the case with Cadogan Sr., hence why I think the article should not list him as Welsh until we are positively sure. -- 02:39, May 24, 2013 (UTC)
- Well, he is Welsh/Irish even if he wasn't born there, so I believe it should be in the article; maybe not as a reference link, but as a behind the scenes item or something since a reference link from me obviously *explicit*s you admins off.
- It's 03:42am here, so I'm off; YOU, since you and Hunnie Bunn started this argument and edit war by removing it originally, can deal with putting it in the behind the scenes. I'm done. I shall, however, always remember this... and I shalll never like Hunnie Bunn - or ever agree with him/her - again. HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 02:43, May 24, 2013 (UTC)
- Actually, you were the one who started the edit war, as you did not stick to the BRD (bold, revert, discuss) cycle. Anyway, regardless of all that, to make that kind of considerations about Hunnie Bunn (or anyone for that matter) just because you disagree with them seems to be uncalled-for, impolite and plain unhelpful.
- The reference about a possible family link to Wales and/or Ireland has been added to article's BTS section. -- 15:43, May 24, 2013 (UTC)