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<th style="background:#d1d1d1; padding:0.3em; font-size:1.1em;">Archives</th></tr>
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<th style="padding:0.3em; font-size:1.1em;"><center>Archive</center></th></tr><tr><td><center>[[File:File-manager.png|80px]]</center>The talk page has the following archives:
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*[[Talk:Albus Dumbledore/Archive 1|Archive 1]]
<tr><td><center>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/File-manager.png</center>[[Talk:Albus Dumbledore/Archive1|Archive 1]] {{Comment|October 21st, 2005-January 10th, 2010}}</td></tr>
 
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*[[Talk:Albus Dumbledore/Archive 2|Archive 2]]
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*[[Talk:Albus Dumbledore/Archive 3|Archive 3]]
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*[[Talk:Albus Dumbledore/Archive 4|Archive 4]]
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== Template photo ==
==Name==
 
{| border="1" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="1" style="width: 200px"
 
|<strike>Brian</strike>
 
|<strike>Dumbledore</strike>
 
|-
 
|change that
 
|to...
 
|-
 
|Brown
 
|Dumbledore
 
|}
 
{{Unsigned|98.245.155.226}}
 
:No,his name is Albus Percival Wulfric BRIAN Dumbledore.{{Unsigned|Pol 871}}
 
   
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I think the current picture looks out of place: The way Dumbledore's posing for the camera. Most character pages has pictures that are either taken from some movie, or at least a promo picture that looks a bit more natural/casual. How about one of these?
   
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[[File:Dumbledorestudy.jpg|thumb]]
:Also, Albus is the name of one of the Geomantic symbols and means "White".
 
:The parts of the UK theory still holds. One of the older names for Britain was
 
:Albion. Referring to the white cliffs.
 
:[[User:MorningstarLucifer|MorningstarLucifer]] 04:26, November 7, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
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[[File:Albus dumbledoreglasses.PNG|thumb]]
==Gandalf==
 
In reading through the biography I began to be reminded a little bit, would it be relevant to mention the similarities? Beyond obvious things like being bearded uberwizards, there's how they both specialize in fire magic, both sort of sacrifice themselves and fall to their doom, both help a tiny invisible boy defeat a dark lord who stored their life force in one of the rings they're wearing... [[User:Tyciol|Ty]] 06:00, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
 
   
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[[User:Tfoc|Tfoc]] ([[User talk:Tfoc|talk]]) 20:06, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
While very true, and others may feel differently then me, but I don't think that the connection is really all that relevant. Although very similar, LOTR was written in an entirely fictional version of our world. Whereas Harry Potter is fictional, it is set in a more mirror image of our world. --[[User:BachLynn23|BachLynn23]] 21:53, July 21, 2010 (UTC)
 
   
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One of the images currently lacks a source, if it is found, I think a vote could be held.[[User:Rodolphus|Rodolphus]] ([[User talk:Rodolphus|talk]]) 06:16, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
Might I add, Harry was only invisible when cloaked, Albus died before he fell, and when was Frodo or whoever invisible? [[Special:Contributions/94.4.163.60|94.4.163.60]] 21:12, October 29, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
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Which image and what are you talking about? I clicked on the images, and both have the same "licencing" thing going on. [[User:Tfoc|Tfoc]] ([[User talk:Tfoc|talk]]) 07:04, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
== Dumbledore in Gryffindor? ==
 
   
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The dumbledorestudy.jpg one doesn't have a category from which film the screenshot is taken.[[User:Rodolphus|Rodolphus]] ([[User talk:Rodolphus|talk]]) 07:23, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
Is there any quotable reference in the books that Dumbledore was indeed in Gryffindor? {{unsigned|98.237.178.82}}
 
   
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I can't say I can see the frame in question in the clip, but it seems to have come from the ''production'' of [https://youtu.be/EkBIqwyn0VI?t=54 this scene]. [[User:Tfoc|Tfoc]] ([[User talk:Tfoc|talk]]) 09:49, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
:In the ''GoF'' movie, Dumbledore remarks to Harry while visiting him in his Gryffindor dormitory, "''I never liked these curtains. Set them on fire in my fourth year. By accident, of course.''" Per the [[HPW:CANON|Canon policy]] this qualifies as canon, as it doesn't directly conflict with the books. -- <small><span style="border:2px solid #333333;">[[User:Seth Cooper|<font style="color:#333333;"> '''Seth Cooper''' </font>]][[User talk:Seth Cooper|<font style="background:#333333;color:white;"> '''owl post!'''</font>]]</span></small> 00:14, May 20, 2010 (UTC)
 
::So it's from the movie! I saw this about the curtains in the article, but it's not referenced. [[User:Aryllia|Aryllia]] 17:36, November 14, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
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::I very much like the current image. It is more recent than any of these images proposed here, and it does not show Dumbleodre "posing for the camera", it is an in-universe, high-quality picture of him with the Elder Wand at his ready. I would also not vote for an image containing the Owl Lecturn, as I believe Dumbledore's use of that object is film-specific and not book canon. I largely prefer it to any of these images suggested here, so I will not be voting for it to be changed. [[User:RedWizard98|RedWizard98]] ([[User talk:RedWizard98|talk]]) 11:55, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
:One doesn't have to be in Gryffindor to know of or set the curtains in the Gryffindor dormitory on fire. How do you know he didn't sneak in the Gryffindor dormitory and set the curtains on fire? [[Special:Contributions/71.255.80.157|71.255.80.157]] 06:23, August 2, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
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It's high-quality, granted, but it's not an "in-universe" picture. It's a promo picture with a black background. Gambon's ''literally'' posing for the camera in costume. As for the thing about the owl lecturn, by that logic, I could say that the half-moon spectacle isn't in the current one, but in this one, which is book canon, while Dumbledore posing for a photo with his wand isn't. [[User:Tfoc|Tfoc]] ([[User talk:Tfoc|talk]]) 12:35, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
How shall he have come in? You need a passwort to get into the Gryffindor tower. Normally only Gryffindors do know that. [[User:Harry granger|Harry granger]] 12:17, August 2, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
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::The current image is in-universe, as are most promo pics; you just don't like it. [[User:RedWizard98|RedWizard98]] ([[User talk:RedWizard98|talk]]) 12:58, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
== is it true ==
 
is it true that dumbledore was gay? KLOKOCHAR 20:48, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 
   
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Including the promo pics on posters with WB and HP logoes? You know, the original versions of these ones with the background yet to be edited out? I vote for picture 2, btw. [[User:Tfoc|Tfoc]] ([[User talk:Tfoc|talk]]) 13:20, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
:Yes. Rowling revealed that Dumbledore was gay in an interview. You can read it [http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2007/10/20/j-k-rowling-at-carnegie-hall-reveals-dumbledore-is-gay-neville-marries-hannah-abbott-and-scores-more here]. - [[User:Nick O'Demus|<font face="Monotype Corsiva" size="4" color="FF8000">Nick O'Demus</font>]] 20:50, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 
:JK also said in that interview that him and grindeweld might have had a fling in that summer they were together wahoo!!!!!!!!!!!![[User:Shephard123|MINISTER]] 14:27, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 
::Uh, no she didn't. Read it again. All she said was that Dumbledore had feelings for Grindelwald. She even said in a later inerview that Grindelwald didn't love Albus. [[Special:Contributions/70.249.153.203|70.249.153.203]] 17:07, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 
   
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::Promo pics containing logos are of course not in universe; that is why they are not used in the main texts of articles, like this one. However, this current profile image contains no OOU logos or connotations, so it qualifies as suitable for use. It is also superior to the ones suggested here and I think most will likely agree. [[User:RedWizard98|RedWizard98]] ([[User talk:RedWizard98|talk]]) 13:55, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
:Also, in the interview, even though she states that Grindewald did not have feelings for Dumbledore, it is not clear what his orientation was --[[User:BachLynn23|BachLynn23]] 21:55, July 21, 2010 (UTC)
 
   
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I think that Redwizard has a point. The main image should be as canon as possible, and Dumbledore did not use the Owl Lecturn in the books. Also, if the other image is in fact from OOtP, it's less rescent than the current one. What do the others think?[[User:Rodolphus|Rodolphus]] ([[User talk:Rodolphus|talk]]) 15:02, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
:Also Hagrid: "Come out t' th' shed wit' me, Harry, there's somethin' I want t' show ye..."
 
   
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::Yes Rodolphus, the current image is the most recent (and canonically, it depicts Dumbledore before his death), and it is also very high resolution. These other two images, however, are of a much lower resolution. [[User:RedWizard98|RedWizard98]] ([[User talk:RedWizard98|talk]]) 15:06, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
== Main Image ==
 
   
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[[File:Albus Dumbledore (HBP promo) 2.jpg|100px|thumb]]
Is there a way we can get an image of Dumbledore where we see MORE of him(like maybe to where we can see his beard)? I'm not trying to be controlling or anything, but whenever I go to this particular article, I would like to see a good image of Dumbledore as the main image(although in my case, a good image to where we see a lot of Dumbledore to where we at least see his beard). So, if someone can put it up(and make sure it's a GOOD image also), it would mean a lot to me, thank you. [[Special:Contributions/75.89.203.87|75.89.203.87]] 00:22, July 6, 2010 (UTC)
 
  +
By that logic, Red, the picture is actually ''more'' canon than the one currently in use, seen as how while the owl lecturn ''is'' unique to the movies - and subsequent media, seen as how HM and HL both feature it, which both predates the books and opens a whole new can of worms, Dumbledore wears half-moon spectacles in the books and doesn't in the picture. So we have an movie poster vs a movie scene image with an element from the books the poster's lacking. But fine, how about...
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[[User:Tfoc|Tfoc]] ([[User talk:Tfoc|talk]]) 11:27, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
   
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::[[File:Albus Dumbledore character portrait 4.jpeg|100px|thumb]]
:A main image change for Dumbledore would require a vote. --[[User:Hcoknhoj|<font face="Times" size="4" color="Black" >JKoch</font>]][[File:Ravenclawcrest.jpg|20px]]<sup>([[User talk:Hcoknhoj|<font face="Monotype Corsiva" size="1" color="Red">Owl Me!</font>]])</sup> 01:07, July 6, 2010 (UTC)
 
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How about this one? [[User:Uncivil Invoice|Uncivil Invoice]] ([[User talk:Uncivil Invoice|talk]]) 12:57, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
:Ok, I would like to suggest [http://www.aceshowbiz.com/images/still/harry_potter_hbp51.jpg ''this'' image] should be the main image, if you please. [[User:CJSFan|CJSFan]] 02:53, July 6, 2010 (UTC)
 
::So, I take it that we are suppose to vote? If so, we need to give each image a name, so we know what to vote for.[[User:CJSFan|CJSFan]] 21:11, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 
:::The images from the cave are terrible.I suggest this others:[[User:Pol 871|Pol 871]] 23:40, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 
   
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Bump!
Shall we do a vote<gallery widths="172" captionalign="left">
 
File:Uhbn.jpg
 
File:Belladeath.jpg
 
File:Lopdumb.jpg
 
File:Dumbledore down.jpg
 
dumbledore-half-blood-prince.jpg
 
Albus dumbledore.jpg
 
</gallery>
 
   
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[[File:Uhbn.jpg|100px|left|thumb]]
:I think the fifth one looks best as main image. --'''[[User:TheBook|TheBook]]''' — ([[User_talk:TheBook|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/TheBook|contribs]]) 16:56, July 13, 2010 (UTC)
 
  +
I do agree with Tfoc on the fact, the way he's posing with the Elder Wand, 'in action' and I think we should have one with natural/casual pose.
:I like the one with snowflakes in it/ the 9th [[User:Abrawak|Abrawak]] 17:32, July 13, 2010 (UTC)
 
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[[File:Albus Dumbledore (HBP promo) 1.jpg|100px|right|thumb]]
:I like the 6th one, the one where Dumbledore is sitting down(the second pic to the right). Because it's the most recent pic of Dumbledore, where he wears his headmaster's costume(basically, the MAIN Dumbledore costume). [[User:CJSFan|CJSFan]] 19:49, July 13, 2010 (UTC)
 
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I think we should change the current image to maybe on of these. These are specifically more simple, to be fair, I don't think it does justice to Albus and I think him sitting or specifically standing, 'posing', is much better for a article and character like his. Thoughts? [[User:ShawONWIKI|ShawONWIKI]] ([[User talk:ShawONWIKI|talk]]) 13:09, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
   
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::Personally in favour of the retention of the current image. [[User:RedWizard98|RedWizard98]] ([[User talk:RedWizard98|talk]]) 17:44, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
::Also, bear in mind that the infobox pic can only be 250px wide, so a wide pic like about half the ones suggested here wouldn't work all that well. Profile pics would look better. - [[User:Nick O'Demus|<font face="Monotype Corsiva" size="4" color="FF8000">Nick O'Demus</font>]] 09:29, July 14, 2010 (UTC)
 
   
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::I agree with the change to the HBP version where he is sitting on his chair. It represents his relaxed and wise nature more and has a more pleasant backdrop. [[User:Trident0101|Trident0101]] ([[User talk:Trident0101|talk]]) 21:41, 10 March 2023 (GMT)
What about [http://graphic-engine.swarthmore.edu/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/dumbledore.jpg this one]? --'''[[User:TheBook|TheBook]]''' — ([[User_talk:TheBook|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/TheBook|contribs]]) 10:05, July 14, 2010 (UTC)
 
   
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:::I see. I still support retaining the current image, and this is quite an old debate, but not that it means it is finished. The current image is the most recent and I think the best quality. [[User:RedWizard98|RedWizard98]] ([[User talk:RedWizard98|talk]]) 22:02, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
I like the 6th picture of him sitting. I think we should have a fairly recent picture of Dumbledore from the HBP and the 6th picture shows more of him before his death. [[User:Lee7003|Lee7003]] 10:25, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 
Ok, now that since some pics are removed(and I assume we're still voting), I still pick the picture of Dumbledore sitting. [[User:CJSFan|CJSFan]] 10:52, August 12, 2010 (UTC)
 
   
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== Typo (in Loyalty section) ==
:Ok, voting has been going on and there have been no objections. So, I think the pic with Dumbledore sitting is the winner(as one of the people who voted for the image). [[User:CJSFan|CJSFan]]<sup>[[User talk:CJSFan|Black Pearl]]</sup> 04:21, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
 
   
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c/formelry/formerly/ {{unsigned|Markboonie|22:20, 8 September 2021 (UTC)}}
'''[[Forum:Post-DH2 infobox images#Albus Dumbledore]]'''
 
   
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:Fixed, thanks for pointing it out, though you didn't need to point it out here, you are allowed to edit the page you know, if you see a mistake, don't be afraid to fix it :) - <span style="border:2px solid #ff0000;">[[User:MrSiriusBlack|<font style="background:#FFff00;color:#ff0000;">&nbsp;'''MrSiriusBlack'''&nbsp;</font>]][[User talk:MrSiriusBlack|<font style="background:#ff0000;color:#ffff00;">&nbsp;'''Talk'''&nbsp;</font>]]</span> 00:26, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
== Gone from Hogwarts ==
 
How many times did he leave Hogwarts in Harry Potter book 6. Don't say his last journey to the Cave. --Danniesen July 6 2010 16:59
 
   
== dumbledor richard harris ==
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== Incorrect Abbreviations ==
perhaps richard harris should get some picture credit and other credit for his part in the role ,,,, im sure it was intended that he continue the role into all the films were he not to pass away {{Unsigned|64.12.117.80}}
 
   
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The abbreviation for "Junior" is "Jr.", not "Jnr", and "Mrs." has a period. Both are written incorrectly in the article, and I don't have privileges to fix it. [[User:Faedelity|Faedelity]] ([[User talk:Faedelity|talk]]) 05:37, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
==Age==
 
   
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:Hello. The spellings "Jnr" and "Mrs" without a period are correct in British English, which is what this wiki uses. - <span style="border:2px solid #ff0000;">[[User:MrSiriusBlack|<font style="background:#FFff00;color:#ff0000;">&nbsp;'''MrSiriusBlack'''&nbsp;</font>]][[User talk:MrSiriusBlack|<font style="background:#ff0000;color:#ffff00;">&nbsp;'''Talk'''&nbsp;</font>]]</span> 12:03, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
In an interview with JK, she said Dumbledore is 150 years old, yet it says on here that he's 115. Shall we change it ? Link here:
 
   
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== Teaching posts ==
http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2000/1000-scholastic-chat.htm
 
   
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I think the war over when McGonagall was born will never be solved, but it seems a young Minerva will be in ''Secrets of Dumbledore'' too after her ''Crimes of Grindelwald'' appearance. Now...Jo's biography of McGonagall says "Minerva managed to become an Animagus under the guidance of her inspirational Transfiguration teacher, Albus Dumbledore." If McGonagall was working at Hogwarts by 1910, that means '''Dumbledore went from Transfiguration to DADA by 1910 then back to Transfiguration by 1943.''' [[User:Apwbd115|Apwbd115]] ([[User talk:Apwbd115|talk]]) 05:21, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
:While it's true that Rowling did say he was 150 in that 2000 interview, on the Wizard of the Month section of her website she gives his birth year as 1881. Since the WotM information was released around 2007, the [[Harry Potter Wiki:Canon|canon policy]] is to go with the most recent information. - [[User:Nick O'Demus|<font face="Monotype Corsiva" size="4" color="FF8000">Nick O'Demus</font>]] 10:37, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
 
   
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== "Flamboyant" Clothing ==
:But 1: Rowling said that he was 150 first, so that should be the real age. And 2, the first one was said by Rowling. If it's she who edits her own website she's been caught contradicting herself. Now all we need to do is ask her which is correct. For now let's keep it at 115 though, if that's the canon policy.
 
   
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The first two sentences in the second paragraph of the Personality section bring up Albus' flamboyant clothing choices, which for a wizard are arguably flamboyant at best though I believe the mention of his periwinkle robes and the plum suit in the books were a subtle poke at 19th century Dandyism and the use of purple. Regardless, the suggestion that the dress robes Sir Richard Harris wore as Dumbledore are "flamboyant attire" completely clashes with the fact that the same style of dress robes which are sent to Ron Weasley in The Goblet of Fire are called "traditional" (in the book and on screen) which is nudge at them being quite old. Furthermore, I would think that the book would take precedence here anyway and it's ludicrous that the only mention of his book clothing is to suggest that Albus getting a flower bonnet in a Wizard Cracker and proceeding to put it on somehow makes him "flamboyant" rather than the grandfather of an authority figure he is generally portrayed as. [[User:Gracefulally|Gracefulally]] ([[User talk:Gracefulally|talk]]) 00:08, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
:Also, the death date says 1996. Is this a typo?
 
   
== Minor edit, but... ==
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== Behind the Scenes ==
   
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"According to Rowling in 2018, we will learn more about Grindelwald's and Dumbledore's past in the upcoming films."
There is a "the" in front of the "a specific Chocolate Frog Card". I tried to edit it, but I couldn't, since I'm newly registered. Could somebody else do it? Please? [[User:RolandaSmithson|RolandaSmithson]] 23:53, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
 
   
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This seems outdated as this is an obvious reference to the Fantastic Beasts series, which has already begun coming out.[[User:PadishahEmpressofGallifrey|PadishahEmpressofGallifrey]] ([[User talk:PadishahEmpressofGallifrey|talk]]) 16:29, 31 May 2022 (UTC)PadishahEmpressofGallifrey
== Minor edit, but... ==
 
   
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::By all means delete or re-write any information you think is redundant or out of date. [[User:RedWizard98|RedWizard98]] ([[User talk:RedWizard98|talk]]) 17:44, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
There is a "the" in front of the "a specific Chocolate Frog Card". I tried to edit it, but I couldn't, since I'm newly registered. Could somebody else do it? Please? [[User:RolandaSmithson|RolandaSmithson]] 23:53, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
 
   
== Richard Harris nationality ==
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== 30 June death date? ==
   
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I know this has been discussed before, but I really do find that date unlikely: see [[Talk:Battle_of_the_Astronomy_Tower#30_June?]]. I do see that Pottermore outright says 30 June, but where did they get that from? It's been on this wiki for many years; it could easily have come from here. This puts the reliability of that source into question. [[User:AdamPlenty|AdamPlenty]] ([[User talk:AdamPlenty|talk]]) 18:35, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
In the behind the scenes section of this article it says that Dumbledore was portrayed by British actor Richard Harris. However, Harris was not British, he was Irish. He was born in County Limerick
 
   
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Even if it had come from here, in which case that certainly should be discussed further, do you have any in-universe reasons to think it wasn't that date? [[User:WeaseleyIsOurKing89|WeaseleyIsOurKing89]] ([[User talk:WeaseleyIsOurKing89|talk]]) 19:41, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Harris {{unsigned|Cathal c}}
 
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:Yes: see the post I linked to. I won't repeat it all here in case it's taken the wrong way. [[User:AdamPlenty|AdamPlenty]] ([[User talk:AdamPlenty|talk]]) 20:05, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
   
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Just looked it over, and it does indeed appear that you are in the right. Good catch, my man. :-) [[User:WeaseleyIsOurKing89|WeaseleyIsOurKing89]] ([[User talk:WeaseleyIsOurKing89|talk]]) 20:34, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
Good catch. I'm not sure if I can add it in (I suppose you could call me "new"), and I'd have to say the admins should check this too before it goes in the article. But still, nice job. [[User:American che|<font color="maroon">'''American che'''</font>]][[User talk:American che|<font color="CC8800"><sup>{TWIST THOSE KNOBS! PULL THOSE LEVERS!}</sup></font>]] 19:46, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
 
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:Is this enough to change the dates, or should we wait to see if others agree with my analysis? Going by Snape's detentions, it likely happened sometime in mid-June, which also ties in with the OWL and NEWT exams that were happening at the time. [[User:AdamPlenty|AdamPlenty]] ([[User talk:AdamPlenty|talk]]) 21:52, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
   
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I can't speak for anyone but myself, but as far as ''I'm'' concerned, Rowling's writings and your incredibly astute observations thereof speak for themselves, and should therefore negate any need for further discussion. You might want to wait a couple of days anyway, just to give people the time to read and form an opinion on the matter, just in case. In the unlikely event there is a contention of some kind, we can deal with it then. If no one else pitches in, I'd say go for it. [[User:WeaseleyIsOurKing89|WeaseleyIsOurKing89]] ([[User talk:WeaseleyIsOurKing89|talk]]) 22:04, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
== What weakened him? ==
 
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:I reckon any contention would likely be due to the length of time the 30 June date has been on this wiki. The 30 June date is based on the widespread, if flawed, assumption that the 31 days started when Dumbledore died, rather than when his will was discovered. The fact it's so widespread makes me believe any change would need a firm consensus, but if none is forthcoming, I might do what you suggest and go for it (silence could be taken as assent, after all...). [[User:AdamPlenty|AdamPlenty]] ([[User talk:AdamPlenty|talk]]) 22:18, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
   
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Indeed it can. And in any event; a consensus is - or at the very least ''should'' - be reserved for when canon is sufficiently ambiguous on an issue to warrant majority opinion on how to proceed to resolve how it should be handled. In this case, on the other hand, there is no great mystery to unravel, and to be frank; how long we have been wrong about something does not change what the facts are. I would say you would be well within your rights as an editor to go ahead with the edit first thing as soon as you have given people a day or two to pitch in. [[User:WeaseleyIsOurKing89|WeaseleyIsOurKing89]] ([[User talk:WeaseleyIsOurKing89|talk]]) 22:44, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
Was it the ring that weakened him or was it the potion? [[User:Abrawak|Abrawak]] 19:38, January 11, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
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:I'm also worried that others will consider it to have already been well-established that Dumbledore died on 30 June, and my changes will be reverted. However, looking at The Will of Albus Dumbledore (the chapter) again, it's '''''obvious''''' that the 31 days period used to justify the 30 June date is wrong: it's outright stated that 31 days have passed since 31 July, but it's also outright stated (in the very same scene) that he died ''more'' than that length of time ago. Therefore, the 31 days must have started sometime ''after'' Dumbeldore's death. With this, I'm actually tempted to change it right now. Nevertheless, I'll wait a day or two and see if anyone else chimes in; there may be something I've missed. However, I don't think there is: the mid-June date really does fit everything that's been established in canon. [[User:AdamPlenty|AdamPlenty]] ([[User talk:AdamPlenty|talk]]) 02:27, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
I'm not too sure. The ring did weaken him somewhat, but I think it was the Drink of Despair that totally weakened him before his death. [[User:AlastorMoody|AlastorMoody]] 06:12, July 29, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
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I don't think you have to worry about that. The very ''beginning'' of {{HBP|B|30}} concurs with you:
== Main Picture ==
 
   
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:"''Harry, Ron, Hermione and Ginny were spending all of their time together. The beautiful weather seemed to mock them; Harry could imagine how it would have been if Dumbledore had not died, ''and they had had this time together at the very end of the year,'' Ginny's examinations finished, the pressure of homework lifted... and hour by hour, he put off saying the thing that he knew he must say, doing what he knew it was right to do, because it was too hard to forgo his best source of comfort.''"
I noticed the main picture of the article was changed. Was this voted on? [[User:Texthawm|<span style="font-family:Felix Titling;color:red">Texthawm</span>]] | [[File:Mail.gif]] ==> [[User Talk:Texthawm|<span style="font-family:Simplified Arabic;color:red">Send an Owl</span>]] 01:04, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
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I think this should suffice? [[User:WeaseleyIsOurKing89|WeaseleyIsOurKing89]] ([[User talk:WeaseleyIsOurKing89|talk]]) 07:44, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
== Appearance: Scar ==
 
   
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:Yep. That's yet more proof that it couldn't have been 30 June. These are all the prior discussions about this I could find: [[Talk:Albus_Dumbledore/Archive_3#Death_date|1]] [[Talk:Albus_Dumbledore/Archive_3#Death|2]] ("''The will would have been turned over to the ministry the moment he passed away, as wills do in the Muggle world too. They had the will for 31 days, thus he died at the end of June.''"? As I've already pointed out, that's not what happened with Sirius Black's will; therefore, there's no reason to assume that's what happened with Dumbledore's) [[Talk:Albus_Dumbledore/Archive_2#Death_date|3]] [[Talk:Battle_of_the_Astronomy_Tower#Date_of_the_Battle|4]]. Others have raised some of the points I have, but they also seem to have missed others I've raised. I think we can determine that Dumbledore died sometime in the middle of June. That's the best we can do, I think. [[User:AdamPlenty|AdamPlenty]] ([[User talk:AdamPlenty|talk]]) 16:30, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
I'm not sure if this should be added or not, because it's not a confirmed fact.
 
   
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Albus Dumbledore died on 30 June 1997 (as part of the Battle of the Astronomy Tower) according to Pottermore which is a first-tier source [http://web.archive.org/web/20161129145753/https://www.pottermore.com/fact-file-characters/albus-dumbledore-fact-file see this]). This date is reiterated in a current [https://www.wizardingworld.com/quiz/the-battle-of-the-astronomy-tower-quiz WW quiz]. There is no amount of reasoning around facts directly given from such first-tier sources, such as how long this school year apparently lasted), that would be sufficient to override these dates - see [[Harry_Potter_Wiki:Policy]] and [[Harry Potter Wiki:Canon]]. Cheers --[[User:Ironyak1|Ironyak1]] ([[User talk:Ironyak1|talk]]) 17:37, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
But Dumbledore once told McGonagall that he had a scar of the London Underground above his left knee (he said it once, in Philosopher's/Sorcerer's Stone). Should this be added to his physical description? Just a suggestion.
 
   
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:In other words, the 30 June myth has become so widespread it's become the truth? This is exactly what I was afraid of. If we refuse to admit this may be wrong, there's certainly sufficient proof to list this as a [[Mistakes in the Harry Potter books|mistake]] at least? [[User:AdamPlenty|AdamPlenty]] ([[User talk:AdamPlenty|talk]]) 17:46, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
He says it here: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone, Chapter 1, Page 15, Paragraph 7
 
   
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:I've [[Mistakes_in_the_Harry_Potter_books#Date_of_Albus_Dumbledore's_death|listed this as a mistake]] for now, pending further discussion. The 30 June date simply doesn't add up, full stop, I'm afraid.[[User:AdamPlenty|AdamPlenty]] ([[User talk:AdamPlenty|talk]]) 18:43, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
== headmaster of hogwarts ==
 
   
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Unless some kind of indication is given that the date "June 30 1997" on Pottermore, or its subsequent cut-and-paste placement in the quiz in question on the WW website, for that matter, actually comes from Rowling herself, it would technically be a Second-Tier at best. And a contentious one at that, mind, as it wouldn't have been the first time an official source borrowed from the wiki. [[User:WeaseleyIsOurKing89|WeaseleyIsOurKing89]] ([[User talk:WeaseleyIsOurKing89|talk]]) 20:50, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
it says that when dolores wasn't headmaster anymore dumbledore became headmaster this is true of course but then it goes over in Minerva McGonagall shouldn't Severus Snape be there in between
 
   
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:Not to mention how unreliable Rowling is with numbers and dates. Didn't she actually admit that somewhere? (apparently she 'has admitted that maths is not her strong suit', but [[Mistakes_in_the_Harry_Potter_books|the article]] doesn't give a source) [[User:AdamPlenty|AdamPlenty]] ([[User talk:AdamPlenty|talk]]) 20:52, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
so it should be :
 
   
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I won't pretend to really get how Ironyak1 managed to conflate the ''presentation'' of facts with "reasoning" ''around'' facts, but to answer your question, Adam; indeed she did. Not that that matters much in this case: The death date of 30 June was first put on the wiki by [[User:Seth Cooper]] on [https://harrypotter.fandom.com/wiki/Albus_Dumbledore?oldid=500511 30 April 2011]. His source for that was not Pottermore or anything else, it was the following reasoning around facts:
Dolores-->Albus-->Snape-->McGonagall
 
   
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:"''According to Scrimgeour (and Hermione) in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Chapter 7 (The Will of Albus Dumbledore), the Ministry has the right to maintain possession of Dumbledore's bequests for thirty-one days only, in accordance with the Decree for Justifiable Confiscation. Dumbledore's bequests were delivered to Ron, Hermione and Harry on 31 July, 1997: Harry Potter's seventeenth birthday. As it is referred in that chapter that the "thirty-one days are up", Dumbledore died exactly thirty-one days earlier, in the evening of 30 June.''"
and not
 
   
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Later, this date appeared on Pottermore, and subsequently on WW. To ''not'' draw a distinction between Rowling's writings on the Pottermore/WW page and all the other stuff written by who knows when would be a mistake, to put it mildly. [[User:WeaseleyIsOurKing89|WeaseleyIsOurKing89]] ([[User talk:WeaseleyIsOurKing89|talk]]) 00:24, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
Dolores-->Albus-->McGonagall
 
   
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:Yeah, that's one of my points: how do we know that other sources that say 30 June didn't just get the date from here? Are we relying on Harry Potter Wiki mirrors for our info? [[User:AdamPlenty|AdamPlenty]] ([[User talk:AdamPlenty|talk]]) 00:43, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
:::It's Dolores->Albus->McGonagall->Snape->McGonagall
 
:::McGonagall was the headmistress in late June 1997. --[[File:Ravenclawcrest.jpg|20px]][[User:El Profeta Vespertino|<font face="Monotype Corsiva" size="4" color="Blue">The Evening Prophet</font>]] [[File:Ravenclawcrest.jpg|20px]] (''[[User talk:El Profeta Vespertino|<font color="Black">Owl Post</font>]]'') 22:56, April 21, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
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I just checked the current source for 30 June: It's dated to 29 Nov 2016. Cooper's insertion of the date is some four years and seven months ''older'' than the source used to re-confirm the same date. Again - who wrote the fact file? Where did they get 30 June from? [[User:WeaseleyIsOurKing89|WeaseleyIsOurKing89]] ([[User talk:WeaseleyIsOurKing89|talk]]) 01:04, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
:::Technically it was Albus --> Minerva --> Dolores --> Albus --> Minerva --> Severus --> Minerva
 
:::This was because on the night of Albus' sacking, Albus appointed McGonagall as the Headmistress but the next morning, Dolores was appointed. After Albus died, McGonagall became Headmistress for 2 months. <span style="background-color:Red; border:4px ridge Green;"> [[User:Arceus The God of Pokemon|<span style="color:Purple;">'''I am the God of Pokemon!!!!!!'''</span>]] </span> 14:10, July 6, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
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:The fact file says Dumbledore was 'Considered by many to be one of the most powerful wizards of his time', a phrase that is very closely paraphrased from [https://harrypotter.fandom.com/wiki/Albus_Dumbledore?oldid=1029057 the article at the time], so it wouldn't at all surprise me if the info there came from this very article. [[User:AdamPlenty|AdamPlenty]] ([[User talk:AdamPlenty|talk]]) 01:18, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
:::I would say it was Albus --> Minerva (Chamber of Secrets) --> Albus --> Minerva (OotP) --> Dolores --> Albus --> Minerva (after Albus' death) --> Severus --> Minerva --> unknown head at the epilogue time. [[User:Harry granger|Harry granger]] 18:43, July 6, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
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::I'm not sure why there is such an interest in trying to "prove" Pottermore incorrect, but as a tier-one source, whatever they provided has to be considered fact according to [[HPW:Canon]], even if they just stole Seth's reasoning and canonized it. That's how canon works - info given by canon are facts unless contradicted by higher canon, even facts that don't completely line up based on other possible reasonings.
== Dumbledore's Army ==
 
   
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::Yes, Rowling has said that [https://web.archive.org/web/20051124055057/https://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=63 "maths is not my strong suit"] which has lead to many [https://harrypotter.fandom.com/wiki/Dating_conventions#Contradictions date contradictions], both in terms of internal consistency and alignment with the real world calendar (the first week of school in GOF has 2 Mondays, no joke - the wizarding world is wild! ;) Nonetheless, if a top tier canon source says 30 June 1997, then 30 June 1997 it is, unless another top tier source modifies this. It doesn't matter whether one believes that Dumbledore's will was immediately found upon his death (given he knew he was going to die, unlike Sirius, and had all the items prepared to bequeath, it seems entirely reasonable IMHO that he would have taken steps to have the will ready and waiting to go upon his death) or that the school year may have been planned to stretch into July (the end of the Hogwarts school year has varied to be sometime from [[1994|mid]] or [[1996|late June]] all the way till [[1995|1 July]]. There also is the whole 27 July Daily Prophet stating that "Her nine-hundred-page book was completed a mere four weeks after Dumbledore’s mysterious death in June." ({{DH|B|2}}), which leads back to 30 June as well, and which would not add up if Dumbledore died mid-June. As you know, this has been discussed and rehashed multiple times and there is contradictory evidence leading to different results, but at the end of the day, Pottermore ultimately published 30 June 1997 and that is a canon source for the wiki so that is what we use, unless JKR changes her mind and gives us new info. Cheers --[[User:Ironyak1|Ironyak1]] ([[User talk:Ironyak1|talk]]) 06:56, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
Shouldn't the D.A. relationship section be expanded or changed? It mainly focuses on the D.A. itself, rather then it's relationship with Dumbledore.
 
   
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"Even if they just stole Seth's reasoning, that's how canon works"? I'm sorry, but that isn't good enough.
[[User:Whatwouldthewealeytwinsdo?|Whatwouldthewealeytwinsdo?]] 07:51, April 26, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
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Ignoring for a moment that neither AdamPlenty or I really ''need'' to "try" to prove Pottermore wrong since the facts speaks for themselves, what [[HPW:Canon]] ''actually'' says is that ''J. K. Rowling'' is the first-tier source. Surely, it follows from this that it is the [https://www.wizardingworld.com/writing-by-jk-rowling J.K. Rowling Originals] ''on'' {{WW}} that is tier-one, not the webpage itself? The fact that Rowling published more information on her universe in a tiny corner of a webpage more than half a decade ago does not mean that everything else on it, which includes the out-of-universe trivia quiz put up for the enjoyment of visitors to the website that you referred to, should get the same treatment. In the latter case, we are - after all - talking about stuff produced random, unidentified website operators whose content we have been given no indication conferred with Rowling on everything they put up. If her [[Warner Bros.|''primary licensee'']] don't get Tier-One status, nor should random webmasters or whatever they are called, who might not even be fans of the books and just done a quick google search to fill out a "fact file"/quiz.
==Death date==
 
I realised something. Under the law, set by the [[Decree for Justifiable Confiscation]], the Ministry can keep Dumbledore's bequests in their possession for no more than thirty-one days unless they can prove they are dangerous. Scrimgeour delivered Dumbledore's will on 31 July, Harry Potter's birthday because, as Hermione said, "the thirty-one days are up". Therefore, wouldn't he have died on the evening of 30 June, setting the skirmish at the Horcrux cave and the Battle of the Astronomy Tower on that day, too? -- <small><span style="border:2px solid #333333;">[[User:Seth Cooper|<font style="color:#333333;">&nbsp;'''Seth Cooper'''&nbsp;</font>]][[User talk:Seth Cooper|<font style="background:#333333;color:white;">&nbsp;'''owl&nbsp;post!'''</font>]]</span></small> 22:23, April 27, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
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As for your point about {{DH}}, the fact that [[The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore]] was completed "four weeks after Dumbledore’s mysterious death" does ''not'' lead back to 30 June, it just leads back to the ''month'' of June. It only ''seems'' to lead back to 30 June if you already assume that that's the correct date. [[User:WeaseleyIsOurKing89|WeaseleyIsOurKing89]] ([[User talk:WeaseleyIsOurKing89|talk]]) 15:24, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
: I've never really noticed that but yeag. That's brilliant actually. I think we should put that down in the article. <sub>—</sub>[[File:German eagle logo.Png|31px]] [[User:Firefox1095|<font face="Vivaldi" size="4" color="Black">&nbsp;Firefox1095&nbsp;</font>]] [[File:German eagle logo.Png|31px]]<sub>—</sub> 00:48, April 28, 2011 (UTC)
 
  +
:*For what it's worth, I concur with your (WeaseleyIsOurKing89's) interpretation of what's canon. There's no indication Rowling had anything to do with Dumbledore's fact file, and why should anything on that site that didn't come from Rowling be considered canon at all, let alone tier-one? Just because Rowling owns certain rights to the site doesn't make everything (or ''any''thing, for that matter) on it canon. [[User:AdamPlenty|AdamPlenty]] ([[User talk:AdamPlenty|talk]]) 18:42, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
  +
:*To add to the above, the About Us page on WIzarding World says: "''Wizarding World Digital is a partnership between Warner Bros. and Pottermore''". So, even if it is canon, it's tier-two canon at best. The books are of course tier-one canon. [[User:AdamPlenty|AdamPlenty]] ([[User talk:AdamPlenty|talk]]) 19:05, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
   
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"''I'm not sure why there is such an interest in trying to "prove" Pottermore incorrect''" Because evidence strongly suggests that it ''is'' incorrect. It wouldn't be the first time someone made something up, put it on this wiki, and for it to have subsequently found its way into Harry Potter folklore. I am of course referring to the idea that the [[Duel between Albus Dumbledore and Gellert Grindelwald (1945)|famous duel between Dumbledore and Grindelwald]] [https://harrypotter.fandom.com/wiki/Duel_between_Albus_Dumbledore_and_Gellert_Grindelwald_(1945)?type=revision&diff=571646&oldid=570005| lasted three hours]. This is why Wikipedia has a policy against the use of such mirrors as sources. We should have a similar policy if we don't already.
::Shall I add the date to articles, then? -- <small><span style="border:2px solid #333333;">[[User:Seth Cooper|<font style="color:#333333;">&nbsp;'''Seth Cooper'''&nbsp;</font>]][[User talk:Seth Cooper|<font style="background:#333333;color:white;">&nbsp;'''owl&nbsp;post!'''</font>]]</span></small> 18:59, April 30, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
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"''It doesn't matter whether one believes that Dumbledore's will was immediately found upon his death (given he knew he was going to die, unlike Sirius, and had all the items prepared to bequeath, it seems entirely reasonable IMHO that he would have taken steps to have the will ready and waiting to go upon his death''" {{DH|B|7}} makes it clear that the 31 days did '''''not''''' coincide with Dumbledore's death, but happened sometime afterwards. Also, as Dumbledore's imminent death was striclty between himself and Snape, it seems unlikely that he would have set his affairs in order like that, as that would have been something of a giveaway.
Yes, we should.--[[User:Rodolphus|Rodolphus]] 19:02, April 30, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
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"''There also is the whole 27 July Daily Prophet stating that "Her nine-hundred-page book was completed a mere four weeks after Dumbledore’s mysterious death in June." ({{DH|B|2}}), which leads back to 30 June as well''" If 'four weeks' is to be taken literally, that still takes it back to before 30 June, as 27 July was when it was ''published'', not when it was written. It also doesn't say that 27 July was the date it was completed, just that it was completed four weeks after his death. I'm sorry, but the evidence is overwhelmingly against 30 June, and there's no just point in denying that. [[User:AdamPlenty|AdamPlenty]] ([[User talk:AdamPlenty|talk]]) 15:41, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
:::Incidentally, I've found out that this date, 30 June, 1997, was the date Bloomsbury originally published ''Philosopher's Stone'' in London. =) -- <small><span style="border:2px solid #333333;">[[User:Seth Cooper|<font style="color:#333333;">&nbsp;'''Seth Cooper'''&nbsp;</font>]][[User talk:Seth Cooper|<font style="background:#333333;color:white;">&nbsp;'''owl&nbsp;post!'''</font>]]</span></small> 19:16, April 30, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
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Bump. [[User:WeaseleyIsOurKing89|WeaseleyIsOurKing89]] ([[User talk:WeaseleyIsOurKing89|talk]]) 21:17, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
:Just being the devil's advocate here, but I'm sure we're all familiar with Rowling's reputation with numbers and dates. ''': /''' - [[User:Nick O'Demus|<font face="Monotype Corsiva" size="4" color="FF8000">Nick O'Demus</font>]] 11:14, May 4, 2011 (UTC)
 
  +
:Canon policy isn't exaclty clear on this, so I've started [[Harry_Potter_Wiki_talk:Canon#Non-Rowling_Wizarding_World/Pottermore_content|a discussion about that]] there. [[User:AdamPlenty|AdamPlenty]] ([[User talk:AdamPlenty|talk]]) 21:48, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
   
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[https://www.quora.com/On-what-day-did-Albus-Dumbledore-die-in-June-1997-The-Harry-Potter-wikia-says-that-he-died-on-June-30-1997-but-since-he-died-during-the-school-year-then-he-must-have-died-earlier-When-do-you-think-he-died This discussion on Quora] should make for interesting reading. It raises many of the same points I've made here. [[User:AdamPlenty|AdamPlenty]] ([[User talk:AdamPlenty|talk]]) 21:30, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
::Nonetheless, we have nothing that makes her believe her to be wrong. In fact, all evidence seems to fit: from the books we know that that it happened in June (HBP25), and the original script for ''Half-Blood Prince'' seems to suggest that it was on late June ("''DUMBLEDORE: What brings you out on such a fine Spring evening? Or is it Summer?''"). Granted, this line wasn't on the final film, but still. The only problem I see with this date is that the summer holidays become a bit shorter than the other ones, but I can go with that. -- <small><span style="border:2px solid #333333;">[[User:Seth Cooper|<font style="color:#333333;">&nbsp;'''Seth Cooper'''&nbsp;</font>]][[User talk:Seth Cooper|<font style="background:#333333;color:white;">&nbsp;'''owl&nbsp;post!'''</font>]]</span></small> 13:09, May 4, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
:::Well I kind of agree with Nick O'Demus. Despite of being the brilliant writer and author she is, we all know (or at least most of us know) that when it comes to numbers and dates, Rowling is not the person for that job. <sub>—</sub>[[File:German eagle logo.Png|31px]] [[User:Firefox1095|<font face="Vivaldi" size="4" color="Black">&nbsp;Firefox1095&nbsp;</font>]] [[File:German eagle logo.Png|31px]]<sub>—</sub> 03:58, May 7, 2011 (UTC)
 
:::Hmm... but in After The Burial, they told that lessons were suspended and examinations postponed. The school year ends on July 1. So Dumbledore couldn't have died on 30. Moreover, Slughorn says that the Hogwarts Express should be leaving early. I think it was sometime between June 15-20. Also, it was never stated that Dumbledore's will was discovered on the day he died. <span style="background-color:Red; border:4px ridge Green;"> [[User:Arceus The God of Pokemon|<span style="color:Purple;">'''I am the God of Pokemon!!!!!!'''</span>]] </span> 14:17, July 6, 2011 (UTC)
 
:::
 
 
If he did die on 30 June, it makes me feel like Dumbledore is a little mad before he dies in the sixth movie, since it's been summer for nine days now, and not spring... Hmm, just my opinion on that, haha. --[[User:AlastorMoody|AlastorMoody]] 06:17, July 29, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
== Transfiguration prof? ==
 
 
It says in the article that dumbledore was the transfiguration professor before becoming headmaster but I thought he was defense against the dark arts and that's where the 1 year curse came from...
 
 
He was indeed the Transfiguration teacher at Hogwarts, not Defence Against the Dark Arts. The jinx on the post that made it so a professor could only last one year was placed on it after Dumbledore refused the job to Voldemort, who had come to apply as the D.A.D.A. teacher, at which time Voldemort cursed it. --[[User:AlastorMoody|AlastorMoody]] 04:13, July 31, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
== Pottermore & dates ==
 
 
I put some of this information on McGonagall's talk page, but it's relevant to Dumbledore too. Basically, Dumbledore didn't become Headmaster in 1956...
 
 
As we found out in "Order of the Phoenix," McGonagall began teaching at Hogwarts in December 1956. It's not explicitly stated that she became Transfiguration professor that year, simply that she began teaching then.
 
 
We now know from Pottermore that, after the summer following her graduation from Hogwarts, McGonagall worked at the Department for Magical Law Enforcement for two years before joining the Hogwarts faculty. BUT...it says, "The owl returned within hours, offering her a job in the Transfiguration department, under Head of Department, Albus Dumbledore."
 
 
This means a couple of things...'''1)''' McGonagall did not succeed Dumbledore as Transfiguration professor in December 1956, she became something of a junior professor/professor's assistant. '''2)''' If she joined the Hogwarts faculty in 1956, that means she worked at the Ministry from 1954 to 1956...which means she graduated from Hogwarts in 1954...and was born circa 1936 (not 1925). The 1925 birthyear came from an interview where Jo said Dumbledore was 150 and McGonagall was 70; that Dumbledore birthyear was later "overriden" by Jo's Wizard of the Month, which showed that Dumbledore was 115 when he died -- so the credibility of the 1925 year has been lacking.
 
 
'''And 3)''' Since McGonagall didn't replace him as Transfiguration professor right away, Dumbledore didn't become Headmaster in 1956 -- which makes sense with Lupin's testimony from "Prisoner of Azkaban", that he became Headmaster when Lupin was 11 (1971).[[User:Apwbd150|Apwbd150]] 22:04, August 15, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
: I'm having second thoughts about this -- not McGonagall's birth year, but the year in which Dumbledore became headmaster. In "Half-Blood Prince" we learn that Voldemort met with Dumbledore shortly after the latter became headmaster to seek the DADA position. This couldn't have been the early 1970s, since Voldemort's reign of terror was already in effect by then; I doubt he would go Hogwarts during the middle of a war, and the way Dumbledore talks it sounds like he and the Death Eaters are in their early stages.
 
 
: Dumbledore also says the Voldemort came to him 10 years after he killed Hepzibah Smith. He began working at Borgin and Burkes after graduating from Hogwarts in 1945 (which we know as a fact). So, at the earliest, Dumbledore became headmaster in 1956; at the latest, I'd say 1969. Perhaps, Dumbledore DID in fact become headmaster in 1956, but after McGonagall joined the faculty in December of that year. [[User:Apwbd150|Apwbd150]] 22:30, September 7, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
==Infobox image vote==
 
 
'''[[Forum:Post-DH2 infobox images#Albus Dumbledore]]'''
 
 
Follow the link. Nominations are still open. Voting starts in 3 days. - [[User:Nick O'Demus|<font face="Monotype Corsiva" size="4" color="FF8000">Nick O'Demus</font>]] 14:51, August 26, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
 
I am very glad to see that you have now changed the information in agreement with the books rather than the movies. When I last visited this website there seemed to be way to much information originating from the less than reputable works of David Yates. For example the article said (before it was changed) that Dumbeldorehad barely survived his duel with Voldemort
 
 
== Good Updates ==
 
 
 
I am very glad to see that you have now changed the information in agreement with the books rather than the movies. When I last visited this website there seemed to be way to much information originating from the less than reputable works of David Yates. For example the article said (before it was changed) that Dumbeldorehad barely survived his duel with Voldemort
 
 
 
[[Special:Contributions/99.8.168.220|99.8.168.220]] 21:54, August 30, 2011 (UTC)Reader
 
 
==New Main Photo?==
 
 
 
 
<gallery captionalign="left">
 
Screen shot 2011-11-09 at 9.38.27 PM.png|Dumbledore welcomes Harry to Limbo.
 
Screen shot 2011-11-09 at 9.39.10 PM.png|Far shot of Dumbles in Limbo.
 
</gallery>
 
 
 
 
 
:I don't really think we ''need'' to have a picture of Dumbledore from ''Deathly Hallows: Part 2'' as main image. Not in the present time, anyway. These pictures are dreadfully low quality, cannot even compare to the one we have now. Also, they all have weird angles on (or are too close to) Dumbledore's face to be a ''proper'' main image. -- <small><span style="border:2px solid #333333;">[[User:Seth Cooper|<font style="color:#333333;">&nbsp;'''Seth Cooper'''&nbsp;</font>]][[User talk:Seth Cooper|<font style="background:#333333;color:white;">&nbsp;'''owl&nbsp;post!'''</font>]]</span></small> 18:36, October 10, 2011 (UTC
 
 
:I understand they're dreadfully low quality. But is that to say we'll ''never ''have Gandalf-Dumbles as main image? [[User:AlastorMoody|AlastorMoody]] 21:40, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
::If there isn't a proper image of him in that scene to serve as main image, then I think not. -- <small><span style="border:2px solid #333333;">[[User:Seth Cooper|<font style="color:#333333;">&nbsp;'''Seth Cooper'''&nbsp;</font>]][[User talk:Seth Cooper|<font style="background:#333333;color:white;">&nbsp;'''owl&nbsp;post!'''</font>]]</span></small> 22:37, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
::Since the film is out, I've found two super high quality pictures of him? Would either of these suffice? [[User:AlastorMoody|AlastorMoody]] 02:43, November 10, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
::But on second thought, they seem to lower in quality as I transfer them to my desktop to the wiki. Any idea why? They were a bit better, if I recall correctly. [[User:AlastorMoody|AlastorMoody]] 02:44, November 10, 2011 (UTC)
 
:::They look fine to me, but that's just my opinion. If it were between those 2, I'd say the second one. But if those won't work, we could use either of the ones where he was talking to Harry at the end(particularly cropped versions of [http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/26400000/Harry-Potter-and-the-Deathly-Hallows-Part-2-harry-potter-26407965-1280-544.jpg this one] or [http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/26400000/Harry-Potter-and-the-Deathly-Hallows-Part-2-harry-potter-26407976-1280-544.jpg this one]). --[[Image:CJSFan Sig.png|link=User:CJSFan|75px]]<sup>''[[User talk:CJSFan|Black Pearl]]'', ''[[w:c:pirates:User talk:CJSFan/Archives|HMS Interceptor]]'', ''[[w:c:pirates:User talk:CJSFan/Free Discussion|Queen Anne's Revenge]]''</sup> 03:29, November 10, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
== Skills section update ==
 
 
as I am a guest I'm not allowed to edit Dumbly's page, so if a registered person could do this for me please? I noticed in the section '''magical abilities and skills''' under the'' 'master of the deathly hallows''' it is mentioned that (quote)'' "Dumbledore was also the first master of the [[Elder Wand]] who did not use it to commit murder or brag of it to the public."'' We don't know all the owners of the elder wand, so we can't assume that every single person who owned it was a murdering git. Also, didn't it dissapear for about a centuary or two? Maybe this was caused by someone with good intentions like Dumbledore. Unless JKR's mentioned something on Pottermore, I think it should be changed to'' "Dumbledore was also the only '''known''' master of the [[Elder Wand]] who did not use it to commit murder or brag of it to the public."'' (emphasis mine). Yeah, it's a little nit picky, but I think the canon policy says no assumptions? [[Special:Contributions/75.54.94.163|75.54.94.163]] 20:24, December 27, 2011 (UTC) Guest
 
 
I personally liked Dumbledore, and was actually sad when I read that he died. Dumbledore was a great man, and this was a great article, filling all the gaps about his life. I would suggest making a summary for it though, because it is so long.
 
 
[[User:BaconRanger|User:BaconRanger]] 01:56, March 2, 2012 (UTC)BaconRanger
 
 
== Want to make minor edit stating that "Dumbledore is gay"... ==
 
 
Hello. I am new on this wiki and have signed up having noticed the line confirming Dumbledore's homosexuality.
 
 
I have tried to edit it but apparently the article will only let me view the source. Why? Does it have to do with my experience as a new member, or is it a special case?
 
 
Anyway, perhaps someone would look after that particular passage. For one I've read that there is still debate on whether Rowling's statement would indeed be considered canon. And at least I see it relevant to plug in a preparatory device, such as something like "J.K. Rowling stated publicly", or "J.K. Rowling idealises Dumbledore as...", etc.
 
 
Just giving you insight. Awaiting your response.
 
 
[[User:LoniousSphere|LoniousSphere]] 14:45, April 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
:Rowling's word is law. She says Dumbledore is gay, so he is. Also, the wiki is written from an in-universe perspective. Which means the Harry Potter saga is chronicled as if it actually happened. Things like "J.K. Rowling stated publicly" etc are the domain of the behind the scenes sections. [[User:Jayden Matthews|Jayden Matthews]] 15:26, April 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Puddlemere United ==
 
 
Not sure if this should go on the wiki, but Dumbledore was plobably a Puddlemere United supporter. From Quidditch Through the Ages "May I also take this opportunity to wish Puddlemere United the best of luck next season."
 
==How strange==
 
So he died at age 115...well, in the film [[Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince (film)|Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince]], [[Ron Weasley|Ron]] says that Dumbledore is 150. [[Special:Contributions/94.15.20.238|94.15.20.238]] 09:27, June 5, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:That was just the trio joking around. Albus' age of 150 is not canon since JKR said that 115 is the correct age he died at. --[[User:KiumaruHamachi|KiumaruHamachi]] 15:25, June 5, 2012 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi
 
 
::In what media? [[Special:Contributions/94.15.20.238|94.15.20.238]] 08:48, June 6, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:It's one of this wiki's policies that information from the books or J. K. Rowling herself is higher canon than what's in the films. When Rowling was doing the "Wizard of the Month" section on her website, she listed Dumbledore's birth year as 1881, and the references at the bottom of the article will explain why it was likely in July or August. Plus, if I remember correctly, in the movie Ron says "''He's like, what, a hundred and fifty?''", so it's likely Ron was just guessing. - [[User:Nick O'Demus|<font face="Monotype Corsiva" size="4" color="FF8000">Nick O'Demus</font>]] 09:21, June 6, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Albus body ==
 
 
In the page, there's something that says Dumbledore 'i''s one of the few individuals in the Wizarding World whose body would be in-corrupt in death'''. Is there a reference for the fact he is one of the few dead fellows that did'nt decompose?
 
 
[[User:Herbertvianna|Herbertvianna]] ([[User talk:Herbertvianna|talk]]) 23:36, July 3, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:Removed. - [[User:Nick O'Demus|<font face="Monotype Corsiva" size="4" color="FF8000">Nick O'Demus</font>]] 14:42, July 4, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
==Title shorts==
 
What are these shorts of:<br />D. Wiz., X.J.(sorc.), S. of Mag.Q. ? --[[Special:Contributions/94.191.187.123|94.191.187.123]] 17:20, August 5, 2012 (UTC)
 
:Hey, I asked you something. --[[Special:Contributions/94.191.187.51|94.191.187.51]] 08:30, August 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Problem with "Dumbledore is gay" paragraph" ==
 
 
In this article it says "Dumbledore was [http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Sexual_orientation gay], but after reflecting that falling in [http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Love love] with [http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Gellert_Grindelwald Gellert Grindelwald] in his youth had led him to lose his moral compass, he no longer trusted his own judgement in such matters.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-carnegie_15-0">[http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Albus_Dumbledore#cite_note-carnegie-15 [16]]</sup><sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-jkrstudent_16-0">[http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Albus_Dumbledore#cite_note-jkrstudent-16 [17]]</sup> As a result, he became "quite [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asexuality asexual]," and lead a "[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celibacy celibate] and bookish life.""
 
 
This is misinterpeting what J.K. Rowling said, and also the wording of it makes it sound like Dumbledores moral failing was his sexaulity.
 
 
 
 
This is what Rowling says
 
 
from here http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2008/3/8/new-j-k-rowling-interview-confirms-working-on-scottish-book-reflects-on-dumbledore-homophobia-fundamentalism-future-writing-projects-and-more
 
 
"<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'TrebuchetMS',Arial,Helvetica;font-size:13px;line-height:18px;text-align:justify;">"I had always seen Dumbledore as gay, but in a sense that's not a big deal. The book wasn't about Dumbledore being gay. It was just that from the outset obviously I knew he had this big, hidden secret, and that he flirted with the idea of exactly what Voldemort goes on to do, he flirted with the idea of racial domination, that he was going to subjugate the Muggles. So that was Dumbledore's big secret.</span>
 
 
<p style="margin-top:10px;margin-bottom:10px;text-align:justify;line-height:18px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:TrebuchetMS,Arial,Helvetica;font-size:13px;">Why did did he flirt with that?" she asks. "He's an innately good man, what would make him do that. I didnt even think it through that way, it just seemed to come to me, I thought 'I know why he did it, he fell in love.' And whether they physically consummated this infatuation or not is not the issue. The issue is love. It's not about sex. So that's what I knew about Dumbledore. And it's relevant only in so much as he fell in love and was made an utter fool of by love. He lost his moral compass completely when he fell in love and I think subsequently became very mistrusting of his own judgment in those matters so became quite asexual. He led a celibate and bookish life."</p>
 
 
<p style="margin-top:10px;margin-bottom:10px;text-align:justify;line-height:18px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:TrebuchetMS,Arial,Helvetica;font-size:13px;">'''My understang is this:'''</p>
 
 
<p style="margin-top:10px;margin-bottom:10px;text-align:justify;line-height:18px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:TrebuchetMS,Arial,Helvetica;font-size:13px;">Dumledore fell in love with the dark wizard Grindelwald, who was into dark magic and blood purity supremacy. THAT was Dumledores moral failing, falling in love with Grindelwald, but not the act of falling in love with a man. I don't think the author of this article made that mistake intenntially, but it needs to be changed.</p>
 
 
<p style="margin-top:10px;margin-bottom:10px;text-align:justify;line-height:18px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:TrebuchetMS,Arial,Helvetica;font-size:13px;">Also regarding his sexuality. When rowling says he led a asexual celibate life that doesen't mean he is not longer a gay. Asexual can be a sexuality, but I don't think that's what Rowling meant by her comment. He simply no longer persued romantic relationships, that doesen't mean he isen't still gay.</p>
 
 
 
 
<p style="margin-top:10px;margin-bottom:10px;text-align:justify;line-height:18px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:TrebuchetMS,Arial,Helvetica;font-size:13px;">Could an editor please make the changes I've suggested here? This article is locked. Thank you. [[User:Muggledoor|Muggledoor]] ([[User talk:Muggledoor|talk]]) 06:37, August 10, 2012 (UTC)</p>
 
 
==Dumbledore's first wand==
 
Hello, I was wondering if we can try to solve the mystery of Albus Dumbledore's first wand, according to what I read in [[Pottermore]], [[wand wood]]s, I think that Dumbledore's wand was made of [[Apple (tree)|applewood]]. He could not buy his wand from [[Garrick Ollivander]] but maybe from his family, and according to his (Ollivander's) research, applewood are "''best suited to an owner of high aims and ideals, as this wood mixes poorly with Dark magic''" (as Dumbledore dream with it, but then refuses) and that "''it is said that the possessor of an apple wand will be well-loved and long-lived''" (again, like Dumbledore) and it also said that "''an unusual ability to converse with other magical beings in their native tongues is often found among apple wand owners''" (as Dumbledore can speak [[Mermish]] and [[Gobbledegook]] and as he can recognize [[Parseltongue]] and also was able to quote verbatim a Parseltongue phrase). The core of his wand I believe was probably phoenix, but for the time he buy his wand the three most powerful cores (dragon, unicorn and phoenix) were extremely rare, it maybe was something else. Dumbledore's wand length and flexibility was probably at the edge of normal length 14" or more as he was a tall man.
 
:Well this is my hypothesis, and I hope some of you like to participate in this discussion. [[User:JLSilver|<span style="color:black; font-family:Magneto">Silver</span>]] '''''('''''[[User Talk:JLSilver|<span style="color:black; font-family:Magneto">Discusión</span>]]''''')''''' 00:54, December 9, 2012 (UTC).
 
 
::While you're free to come to your own decisions about things not stated in any canon source, such as the makeup of Albus Dumbledore's original wand, this wiki does not allow speculation or original research, and thus such a discussion would be against policy. If you wish to have such a discussion somewhere, a ''Harry Potter'' forum or chat room would be a more appropriate place. [[List of Harry Potter fan websites|This page]] may be a good place to start searching for one. -- [[User:1337star|1337star]] <sup>([[User_talk:1337star|Drop me a line!]])</sup> 01:35, December 9, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
==More suitable main picture?==
 
I really think that there should be a different main picture. The current one doesn't look good, I think. What about these:
 
 
<gallery>
 
AlbusDumbledore-001.jpeg
 
AlbusDumbledore-002.jpg
 
AlbusDumbledore-003.jpg
 
</gallery>
 
 
I like the first one a lot. -- ''[[User:PerryPeverell|PerryPeverell]]'' 14:07, January 27, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:No offence, but as we're supposed to use the most recent one as canon and all three of those were earlier than HBP (which is where the current one is from), we're supposed to use the one we have now. At least, that's how the other articles are, sorry to say. --<span style="font-size:9pt;line-height:0.56cm;">[[User:Hunnie Bunn|<font face="Bridgnorth" size="4" color="Indigo">Hunnie Bunn</font>]] ([[User talk:Hunnie Bunn|<font face="Bridgnorth" size="3" color="Indigo">Owl me!</font>]])</span> 14:29, January 27, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
::Oh, I didn't know that. Thanks for letting me know. Still, I think there should be another, more suitable picture for Dumbledore's infobox. -- ''[[User:PerryPeverell|PerryPeverell]]'' 17:28, January 27, 2013 (UTC)
 

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Template photo

I think the current picture looks out of place: The way Dumbledore's posing for the camera. Most character pages has pictures that are either taken from some movie, or at least a promo picture that looks a bit more natural/casual. How about one of these?

Dumbledorestudy
Albus dumbledoreglasses

Tfoc (talk) 20:06, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

One of the images currently lacks a source, if it is found, I think a vote could be held.Rodolphus (talk) 06:16, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Which image and what are you talking about? I clicked on the images, and both have the same "licencing" thing going on. Tfoc (talk) 07:04, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

The dumbledorestudy.jpg one doesn't have a category from which film the screenshot is taken.Rodolphus (talk) 07:23, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

I can't say I can see the frame in question in the clip, but it seems to have come from the production of this scene. Tfoc (talk) 09:49, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

I very much like the current image. It is more recent than any of these images proposed here, and it does not show Dumbleodre "posing for the camera", it is an in-universe, high-quality picture of him with the Elder Wand at his ready. I would also not vote for an image containing the Owl Lecturn, as I believe Dumbledore's use of that object is film-specific and not book canon. I largely prefer it to any of these images suggested here, so I will not be voting for it to be changed. RedWizard98 (talk) 11:55, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

It's high-quality, granted, but it's not an "in-universe" picture. It's a promo picture with a black background. Gambon's literally posing for the camera in costume. As for the thing about the owl lecturn, by that logic, I could say that the half-moon spectacle isn't in the current one, but in this one, which is book canon, while Dumbledore posing for a photo with his wand isn't. Tfoc (talk) 12:35, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

The current image is in-universe, as are most promo pics; you just don't like it. RedWizard98 (talk) 12:58, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Including the promo pics on posters with WB and HP logoes? You know, the original versions of these ones with the background yet to be edited out? I vote for picture 2, btw. Tfoc (talk) 13:20, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Promo pics containing logos are of course not in universe; that is why they are not used in the main texts of articles, like this one. However, this current profile image contains no OOU logos or connotations, so it qualifies as suitable for use. It is also superior to the ones suggested here and I think most will likely agree. RedWizard98 (talk) 13:55, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

I think that Redwizard has a point. The main image should be as canon as possible, and Dumbledore did not use the Owl Lecturn in the books. Also, if the other image is in fact from OOtP, it's less rescent than the current one. What do the others think?Rodolphus (talk) 15:02, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Yes Rodolphus, the current image is the most recent (and canonically, it depicts Dumbledore before his death), and it is also very high resolution. These other two images, however, are of a much lower resolution. RedWizard98 (talk) 15:06, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
Albus Dumbledore (HBP promo) 2

By that logic, Red, the picture is actually more canon than the one currently in use, seen as how while the owl lecturn is unique to the movies - and subsequent media, seen as how HM and HL both feature it, which both predates the books and opens a whole new can of worms, Dumbledore wears half-moon spectacles in the books and doesn't in the picture. So we have an movie poster vs a movie scene image with an element from the books the poster's lacking. But fine, how about... Tfoc (talk) 11:27, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Albus Dumbledore character portrait 4

How about this one? Uncivil Invoice (talk) 12:57, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Bump!

Uhbn

I do agree with Tfoc on the fact, the way he's posing with the Elder Wand, 'in action' and I think we should have one with natural/casual pose.

Albus Dumbledore (HBP promo) 1

I think we should change the current image to maybe on of these. These are specifically more simple, to be fair, I don't think it does justice to Albus and I think him sitting or specifically standing, 'posing', is much better for a article and character like his. Thoughts? ShawONWIKI (talk) 13:09, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Personally in favour of the retention of the current image. RedWizard98 (talk) 17:44, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
I agree with the change to the HBP version where he is sitting on his chair. It represents his relaxed and wise nature more and has a more pleasant backdrop. Trident0101 (talk) 21:41, 10 March 2023 (GMT)
I see. I still support retaining the current image, and this is quite an old debate, but not that it means it is finished. The current image is the most recent and I think the best quality. RedWizard98 (talk) 22:02, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Typo (in Loyalty section)

c/formelry/formerly/ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Markboonie (talkcontribs) 22:20, 8 September 2021 (UTC).

Fixed, thanks for pointing it out, though you didn't need to point it out here, you are allowed to edit the page you know, if you see a mistake, don't be afraid to fix it :) -  MrSiriusBlack  Talk  00:26, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Incorrect Abbreviations

The abbreviation for "Junior" is "Jr.", not "Jnr", and "Mrs." has a period. Both are written incorrectly in the article, and I don't have privileges to fix it. Faedelity (talk) 05:37, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello. The spellings "Jnr" and "Mrs" without a period are correct in British English, which is what this wiki uses. -  MrSiriusBlack  Talk  12:03, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Teaching posts

I think the war over when McGonagall was born will never be solved, but it seems a young Minerva will be in Secrets of Dumbledore too after her Crimes of Grindelwald appearance. Now...Jo's biography of McGonagall says "Minerva managed to become an Animagus under the guidance of her inspirational Transfiguration teacher, Albus Dumbledore." If McGonagall was working at Hogwarts by 1910, that means Dumbledore went from Transfiguration to DADA by 1910 then back to Transfiguration by 1943. Apwbd115 (talk) 05:21, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

"Flamboyant" Clothing

The first two sentences in the second paragraph of the Personality section bring up Albus' flamboyant clothing choices, which for a wizard are arguably flamboyant at best though I believe the mention of his periwinkle robes and the plum suit in the books were a subtle poke at 19th century Dandyism and the use of purple. Regardless, the suggestion that the dress robes Sir Richard Harris wore as Dumbledore are "flamboyant attire" completely clashes with the fact that the same style of dress robes which are sent to Ron Weasley in The Goblet of Fire are called "traditional" (in the book and on screen) which is nudge at them being quite old. Furthermore, I would think that the book would take precedence here anyway and it's ludicrous that the only mention of his book clothing is to suggest that Albus getting a flower bonnet in a Wizard Cracker and proceeding to put it on somehow makes him "flamboyant" rather than the grandfather of an authority figure he is generally portrayed as. Gracefulally (talk) 00:08, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Behind the Scenes

"According to Rowling in 2018, we will learn more about Grindelwald's and Dumbledore's past in the upcoming films."

This seems outdated as this is an obvious reference to the Fantastic Beasts series, which has already begun coming out.PadishahEmpressofGallifrey (talk) 16:29, 31 May 2022 (UTC)PadishahEmpressofGallifrey

By all means delete or re-write any information you think is redundant or out of date. RedWizard98 (talk) 17:44, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

30 June death date?

I know this has been discussed before, but I really do find that date unlikely: see Talk:Battle_of_the_Astronomy_Tower#30_June?. I do see that Pottermore outright says 30 June, but where did they get that from? It's been on this wiki for many years; it could easily have come from here. This puts the reliability of that source into question. AdamPlenty (talk) 18:35, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Even if it had come from here, in which case that certainly should be discussed further, do you have any in-universe reasons to think it wasn't that date? WeaseleyIsOurKing89 (talk) 19:41, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes: see the post I linked to. I won't repeat it all here in case it's taken the wrong way. AdamPlenty (talk) 20:05, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Just looked it over, and it does indeed appear that you are in the right. Good catch, my man. :-) WeaseleyIsOurKing89 (talk) 20:34, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Is this enough to change the dates, or should we wait to see if others agree with my analysis? Going by Snape's detentions, it likely happened sometime in mid-June, which also ties in with the OWL and NEWT exams that were happening at the time. AdamPlenty (talk) 21:52, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but as far as I'm concerned, Rowling's writings and your incredibly astute observations thereof speak for themselves, and should therefore negate any need for further discussion. You might want to wait a couple of days anyway, just to give people the time to read and form an opinion on the matter, just in case. In the unlikely event there is a contention of some kind, we can deal with it then. If no one else pitches in, I'd say go for it. WeaseleyIsOurKing89 (talk) 22:04, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

I reckon any contention would likely be due to the length of time the 30 June date has been on this wiki. The 30 June date is based on the widespread, if flawed, assumption that the 31 days started when Dumbledore died, rather than when his will was discovered. The fact it's so widespread makes me believe any change would need a firm consensus, but if none is forthcoming, I might do what you suggest and go for it (silence could be taken as assent, after all...). AdamPlenty (talk) 22:18, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Indeed it can. And in any event; a consensus is - or at the very least should - be reserved for when canon is sufficiently ambiguous on an issue to warrant majority opinion on how to proceed to resolve how it should be handled. In this case, on the other hand, there is no great mystery to unravel, and to be frank; how long we have been wrong about something does not change what the facts are. I would say you would be well within your rights as an editor to go ahead with the edit first thing as soon as you have given people a day or two to pitch in. WeaseleyIsOurKing89 (talk) 22:44, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm also worried that others will consider it to have already been well-established that Dumbledore died on 30 June, and my changes will be reverted. However, looking at The Will of Albus Dumbledore (the chapter) again, it's obvious that the 31 days period used to justify the 30 June date is wrong: it's outright stated that 31 days have passed since 31 July, but it's also outright stated (in the very same scene) that he died more than that length of time ago. Therefore, the 31 days must have started sometime after Dumbeldore's death. With this, I'm actually tempted to change it right now. Nevertheless, I'll wait a day or two and see if anyone else chimes in; there may be something I've missed. However, I don't think there is: the mid-June date really does fit everything that's been established in canon. AdamPlenty (talk) 02:27, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't think you have to worry about that. The very beginning of Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, Chapter 30 (The White Tomb) concurs with you:

"Harry, Ron, Hermione and Ginny were spending all of their time together. The beautiful weather seemed to mock them; Harry could imagine how it would have been if Dumbledore had not died, and they had had this time together at the very end of the year, Ginny's examinations finished, the pressure of homework lifted... and hour by hour, he put off saying the thing that he knew he must say, doing what he knew it was right to do, because it was too hard to forgo his best source of comfort."

I think this should suffice? WeaseleyIsOurKing89 (talk) 07:44, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Yep. That's yet more proof that it couldn't have been 30 June. These are all the prior discussions about this I could find: 1 2 ("The will would have been turned over to the ministry the moment he passed away, as wills do in the Muggle world too. They had the will for 31 days, thus he died at the end of June."? As I've already pointed out, that's not what happened with Sirius Black's will; therefore, there's no reason to assume that's what happened with Dumbledore's) 3 4. Others have raised some of the points I have, but they also seem to have missed others I've raised. I think we can determine that Dumbledore died sometime in the middle of June. That's the best we can do, I think. AdamPlenty (talk) 16:30, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Albus Dumbledore died on 30 June 1997 (as part of the Battle of the Astronomy Tower) according to Pottermore which is a first-tier source see this). This date is reiterated in a current WW quiz. There is no amount of reasoning around facts directly given from such first-tier sources, such as how long this school year apparently lasted), that would be sufficient to override these dates - see Harry_Potter_Wiki:Policy and Harry Potter Wiki:Canon. Cheers --Ironyak1 (talk) 17:37, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

In other words, the 30 June myth has become so widespread it's become the truth? This is exactly what I was afraid of. If we refuse to admit this may be wrong, there's certainly sufficient proof to list this as a mistake at least? AdamPlenty (talk) 17:46, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
I've listed this as a mistake for now, pending further discussion. The 30 June date simply doesn't add up, full stop, I'm afraid.AdamPlenty (talk) 18:43, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Unless some kind of indication is given that the date "June 30 1997" on Pottermore, or its subsequent cut-and-paste placement in the quiz in question on the WW website, for that matter, actually comes from Rowling herself, it would technically be a Second-Tier at best. And a contentious one at that, mind, as it wouldn't have been the first time an official source borrowed from the wiki. WeaseleyIsOurKing89 (talk) 20:50, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Not to mention how unreliable Rowling is with numbers and dates. Didn't she actually admit that somewhere? (apparently she 'has admitted that maths is not her strong suit', but the article doesn't give a source) AdamPlenty (talk) 20:52, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

I won't pretend to really get how Ironyak1 managed to conflate the presentation of facts with "reasoning" around facts, but to answer your question, Adam; indeed she did. Not that that matters much in this case: The death date of 30 June was first put on the wiki by User:Seth Cooper on 30 April 2011. His source for that was not Pottermore or anything else, it was the following reasoning around facts:

"According to Scrimgeour (and Hermione) in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Chapter 7 (The Will of Albus Dumbledore), the Ministry has the right to maintain possession of Dumbledore's bequests for thirty-one days only, in accordance with the Decree for Justifiable Confiscation. Dumbledore's bequests were delivered to Ron, Hermione and Harry on 31 July, 1997: Harry Potter's seventeenth birthday. As it is referred in that chapter that the "thirty-one days are up", Dumbledore died exactly thirty-one days earlier, in the evening of 30 June."

Later, this date appeared on Pottermore, and subsequently on WW. To not draw a distinction between Rowling's writings on the Pottermore/WW page and all the other stuff written by who knows when would be a mistake, to put it mildly. WeaseleyIsOurKing89 (talk) 00:24, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, that's one of my points: how do we know that other sources that say 30 June didn't just get the date from here? Are we relying on Harry Potter Wiki mirrors for our info? AdamPlenty (talk) 00:43, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

I just checked the current source for 30 June: It's dated to 29 Nov 2016. Cooper's insertion of the date is some four years and seven months older than the source used to re-confirm the same date. Again - who wrote the fact file? Where did they get 30 June from? WeaseleyIsOurKing89 (talk) 01:04, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

The fact file says Dumbledore was 'Considered by many to be one of the most powerful wizards of his time', a phrase that is very closely paraphrased from the article at the time, so it wouldn't at all surprise me if the info there came from this very article. AdamPlenty (talk) 01:18, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
I'm not sure why there is such an interest in trying to "prove" Pottermore incorrect, but as a tier-one source, whatever they provided has to be considered fact according to HPW:Canon, even if they just stole Seth's reasoning and canonized it. That's how canon works - info given by canon are facts unless contradicted by higher canon, even facts that don't completely line up based on other possible reasonings.
Yes, Rowling has said that "maths is not my strong suit" which has lead to many date contradictions, both in terms of internal consistency and alignment with the real world calendar (the first week of school in GOF has 2 Mondays, no joke - the wizarding world is wild! ;) Nonetheless, if a top tier canon source says 30 June 1997, then 30 June 1997 it is, unless another top tier source modifies this. It doesn't matter whether one believes that Dumbledore's will was immediately found upon his death (given he knew he was going to die, unlike Sirius, and had all the items prepared to bequeath, it seems entirely reasonable IMHO that he would have taken steps to have the will ready and waiting to go upon his death) or that the school year may have been planned to stretch into July (the end of the Hogwarts school year has varied to be sometime from mid or late June all the way till 1 July. There also is the whole 27 July Daily Prophet stating that "Her nine-hundred-page book was completed a mere four weeks after Dumbledore’s mysterious death in June." (Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Chapter 2 (In Memoriam)), which leads back to 30 June as well, and which would not add up if Dumbledore died mid-June. As you know, this has been discussed and rehashed multiple times and there is contradictory evidence leading to different results, but at the end of the day, Pottermore ultimately published 30 June 1997 and that is a canon source for the wiki so that is what we use, unless JKR changes her mind and gives us new info. Cheers --Ironyak1 (talk) 06:56, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

"Even if they just stole Seth's reasoning, that's how canon works"? I'm sorry, but that isn't good enough.

Ignoring for a moment that neither AdamPlenty or I really need to "try" to prove Pottermore wrong since the facts speaks for themselves, what HPW:Canon actually says is that J. K. Rowling is the first-tier source. Surely, it follows from this that it is the J.K. Rowling Originals on Wizarding World that is tier-one, not the webpage itself? The fact that Rowling published more information on her universe in a tiny corner of a webpage more than half a decade ago does not mean that everything else on it, which includes the out-of-universe trivia quiz put up for the enjoyment of visitors to the website that you referred to, should get the same treatment. In the latter case, we are - after all - talking about stuff produced random, unidentified website operators whose content we have been given no indication conferred with Rowling on everything they put up. If her primary licensee don't get Tier-One status, nor should random webmasters or whatever they are called, who might not even be fans of the books and just done a quick google search to fill out a "fact file"/quiz.

As for your point about Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, the fact that The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore was completed "four weeks after Dumbledore’s mysterious death" does not lead back to 30 June, it just leads back to the month of June. It only seems to lead back to 30 June if you already assume that that's the correct date. WeaseleyIsOurKing89 (talk) 15:24, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  • For what it's worth, I concur with your (WeaseleyIsOurKing89's) interpretation of what's canon. There's no indication Rowling had anything to do with Dumbledore's fact file, and why should anything on that site that didn't come from Rowling be considered canon at all, let alone tier-one? Just because Rowling owns certain rights to the site doesn't make everything (or anything, for that matter) on it canon. AdamPlenty (talk) 18:42, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
  • To add to the above, the About Us page on WIzarding World says: "Wizarding World Digital is a partnership between Warner Bros. and Pottermore". So, even if it is canon, it's tier-two canon at best. The books are of course tier-one canon. AdamPlenty (talk) 19:05, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

"I'm not sure why there is such an interest in trying to "prove" Pottermore incorrect" Because evidence strongly suggests that it is incorrect. It wouldn't be the first time someone made something up, put it on this wiki, and for it to have subsequently found its way into Harry Potter folklore. I am of course referring to the idea that the famous duel between Dumbledore and Grindelwald lasted three hours. This is why Wikipedia has a policy against the use of such mirrors as sources. We should have a similar policy if we don't already.

"It doesn't matter whether one believes that Dumbledore's will was immediately found upon his death (given he knew he was going to die, unlike Sirius, and had all the items prepared to bequeath, it seems entirely reasonable IMHO that he would have taken steps to have the will ready and waiting to go upon his death" Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Chapter 7 (The Will of Albus Dumbledore) makes it clear that the 31 days did not coincide with Dumbledore's death, but happened sometime afterwards. Also, as Dumbledore's imminent death was striclty between himself and Snape, it seems unlikely that he would have set his affairs in order like that, as that would have been something of a giveaway.

"There also is the whole 27 July Daily Prophet stating that "Her nine-hundred-page book was completed a mere four weeks after Dumbledore’s mysterious death in June." (Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Chapter 2 (In Memoriam)), which leads back to 30 June as well" If 'four weeks' is to be taken literally, that still takes it back to before 30 June, as 27 July was when it was published, not when it was written. It also doesn't say that 27 July was the date it was completed, just that it was completed four weeks after his death. I'm sorry, but the evidence is overwhelmingly against 30 June, and there's no just point in denying that. AdamPlenty (talk) 15:41, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Bump. WeaseleyIsOurKing89 (talk) 21:17, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Canon policy isn't exaclty clear on this, so I've started a discussion about that there. AdamPlenty (talk) 21:48, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

This discussion on Quora should make for interesting reading. It raises many of the same points I've made here. AdamPlenty (talk) 21:30, 18 August 2022 (UTC)