Forum:Post-DH2 infobox images

Forums: Index > The Wizengamot > Post-DH2 infobox images

UPDATE: Vote will be held to decide on use of the epilogue images (see discussion below). Voting will be open for one week. Nominations for images will remain open during that time. Voting for images will begin after the Epilogue images vote is closed. - Nick O'Demus 02:01, August 10, 2011 (UTC)

Looking at the talk pages for some of the major character articles, I've seen several discussions on new infobox images that were either never put to a vote or otherwise never resolved, with some of these topics dating back for several months up to a year.

With Deathly Hallows: Part 2 out, rather than revisiting these old discussion with somewhat dated images, I'd like to propose an overall vote for new images for the following major characters (those marked with asterisks are ones with currently unresolved discussions):

If anyone has any other suggestions/objections/ideas/whatever, post them here. Otherwise, I'm planning on opening up nominations for these eleven at this time tomorrow, with official voting starting one week after that. - Nick O'Demus 10:44, August 7, 2011 (UTC)

Discussion

Personally, I would say that any high-quality promotional image from part 1 or part 2 would be appropriate as the main image for these characters. I believe there are enough such images available for each listed character. I would, however, not use the Epilogue pictures as the main infobox image, and think excluding them from the vote should be an option. - Cavalier One

^{(Wizarding Wireless Network)} 07:55, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

I´d disagree. We have always used the most recent images. And Harry is currently 37 years old, not seventeen. --Rodolphus 08:26, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

With Part 2 out, I think, that we should use Part 2 images. But since Part 1 and 2 are 1 story, the 7th story, I don't think that every image has to be from Part 2. I see Part 1 and 2 as equals - we can use both. I do not think, that we should use epilogue images. Yes, Harry is currently not 17, and we have always used the most recent images but how do we remember Harry? As the 17-years-old hero, who saved the world OR as a 37 years old more or less "normal" man? As the 17-years-old hero, of course --ƃuıuɹoɥʇ^{(Send me an owl)} 10:03, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

A quick comment on using epilogue images; there may be a way to satisfy both parties. Memory Alpha, the Star Trek wiki, uses an infobox that incorporates two images in the infobox, one at the top, one at the bottom. With a little tweak, we could do the same, allowing us to add the main image of a 17-year old Harry at the top, then a 37-year old Harry at the bottom. We would only use this for the characters seen in the epilogue - Harry, Ron, Hermione, Ginny and Draco - however. It would not be used to showcase two images in an infobox for every character. - Cavalier One

^{(Wizarding Wireless Network)} 10:14, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

Personally, I think that Epilogue pictures should take precendence as infobox images. According to our in-universe, that would make the most sense. In-universely, Harry is currently (at the time of the Epilogue) a 37-year old man, but he is still pretty recognisable as he is both as Head of the Auror Office and as saviour of the wizarding world (note how his 37 year-old-self is still famous in the Epilogue). Other characters that appear in the Epilogue would, likewise, be proeminent figures in the wizarding world by 2017: Hermione Granger is high up at the Department of Magical Law Enforcement; Ron Weasley was an Auror and co-manager of Weasleys' Wizard Wheezes; Ginny Weasley played for a famous Quidditch team, and is a Daily Prophet columnist; etc. It's not as if no one saw them again publicly after the Second War. -- Seth Cooper owl post! 13:22, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

My concern with using them isn't so much that they aren't valid as images, but with the quality of said images. The epilogue pictures haven't been released in high-quality promotional style images yet, and may never be. The best images to date have been uploaded recently - see File:Ginny Weasley age 36.png as an example, but the image quality is not brilliant compared to the high-res promotional stills. I'd say quality wins every time over a lesser image. In addition, by adding the epilogue pictures as the main image, I would envision a large amount of patrolling the articles reverting the images. We have problems now with users changing main images on a whim, and I can see that getting worse if the epilogue pictures are chosen. However, I would also call for uniformity - if we allow the epilogue pictures to go as main images, then all characters from the epilogue have to have the epilogue images or none do. There should be no room for half-measures on this. If Harry is depicted as a 37 year old, then so should the rest. Make no mistake, whichever option we chose will cause discussion and argument. However, adding a second image field to the five characters listed aboveas I have suggested could possibly sort out the problem and introduce a fair compromise.- Cavalier One

^{(Wizarding Wireless Network)} 13:40, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

Personally, I believe we should use Epilogue images, as they have enough quality and provide a picture of the most recent appearance of the characters. Also, we use lord Voldemort instead of Tom Riddle because of the name policy, despite remembering him as Voldemort. At least, I think it should be voted. Besides this, I uploaded a image of Snape but it has been deleted. It was from the individual posters and could be used as infobox image. Thanks, --

The Evening Prophet

(Owl Post) 14:07, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

I, personally, share Cav's opinion on this. In general, I realise with our policies the most recent image should be used, and as he said, were there higher quality Epilogue images to use I might feel differently, but in general, what always bugged me about the epilogue was it felt like Rowling tying everything up with a neat bow to not have to do any more books along that series. To me it just never felt like it really belonged with the books per say, just sort of like "the end" oh yea and here's them loading their kids off to school, proving that they went on to live quite happy peaceful lives for the next "x" number of years. Most fans, considering the age of the fan base, do not want to remember Harry as a 37 year old man, and would probably cause an even higher influx of edit reverses. Not to mention the fact that, if these epilogue pics are thrown in with voting, I really can't see them winning the highest vote, so if we were absolutely stuck on the policies, I feel the only way to really stick to them, would be to either vote in general to adhere to policy on the characters who we have the 19 years later photo and not vote on their other images, cuz I doubt they would get more votes over the 17 year old Harry, or do what Cav suggested and for the characters shown 19 years later, do 2 photos in the info boxes, to satisfy both policy and users.BachLynn^{(Send an Owl!)} 14:20, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

I think the epilogue images are of sufficent quality. They may not be as good as the promotional ones, but they're not exactly poor either. You can't really tell the resoloution of an image when it's in the infobox anyway. Unless, of course it's really bad quality. All in all, I'm in favour of the epilogue images for every character to whom they apply. Harry, Ron, Hermione, Ginny, Draco and Astoria. I'm not sure how I'd feel about the dual image idea. It seems like an unnecessary compromise to appease those who may not like seeing an adult Harry, that would ultimately harm the quality of the article. A bit of a "half-measure" in itself, really. I agree though, we shouldn't pick and choose. If Harry get's an epilogue image, so should the others. The only problem is as we're voting on each character seperately the chances are one of them will be given an epilogue image, and another won't. It's a pickle, is what it is! Jayden Matthews 14:33, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

In that case, I say we open a separate vote before voting on the images on whether or not to use the epilogue images. If we vote in favour, then all applicable characters get the epilogue image. If not, then the epilogue images are stripped from the individual voting, and voting will proceed from there. Then we can decide whether or not to take a second vote to possibly introduce a second image field to specific infoboxes. - Cavalier One

^{(Wizarding Wireless Network)} 14:36, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

I agree that if Harry Potter gets his epilogue infobox image, the rest should get it as well. What I meant to say about the vote is that we could vote to use Epilogue pictures in general or not (in favour of using Epilogue images, and against), and then choose a proper image in each article. Am I being clear? Thank you, and sorry for my bad explanations :) --

The Evening Prophet

(Owl Post) 16:36, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

I think it is a good idea to first vote if there should be the epilogue pictures in or not. I would like to see them. Whatever Jo thought, when she wrote the epilogue:

We don't know it.
They belong to the characters imo.

The idea of Cav to put both in the infobox I think is a good compromise. Otherwise I would suggest to put the epilogue picture in the infobox and the 17-year-photo on the top of the article. Harry granger 18:08, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

So basically, for Harry, Ron, Hermione, Ginny, and Draco, the proposed options are:

Use Epilogue images only. No vote for other images.
DON'T use Epilogue images at all. Vote for other images like normal.
Dual-image infoboxes for these 5. Vote for 1st image, 2nd image is Epilogue image.

Do we want to vote on this? - Nick O'Demus 14:57, August 9, 2011 (UTC)

When we vote, I would say: #3 Harry granger 16:46, August 9, 2011 (UTC)

I would choose option 1. --

The Evening Prophet

(Owl Post) 18:30, August 9, 2011 (UTC)

I say yes to vote on those options, will we vote here or on another forum?--BachLynn^{(Send an Owl!)} 21:59, August 9, 2011 (UTC)

I've mocked up the two-image infobox here so that we can see how the two-image infobox would work. I've stripped out some of the info for clarity (I won't go into the amount of useless info in the infobox I would love to strip from the real article :P). Basically, we would create a new infobox called Epilogue infobox that only the five characters would use. This will stop people adding two images to every article since the option will only be available to articles using this infobox. The infobox will have the ability to be coloured to make their existing infobox colours (such as the Ministry colours for Harry). - Cavalier One

^{(Wizarding Wireless Network)} 22:30, August 9, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, Cav. Might as well get started then. - Nick O'Demus 02:01, August 10, 2011 (UTC)

Also, does anyone have a better quality Draco Malfoy epilogue image? - Nick O'Demus 02:11, August 10, 2011 (UTC)

Is there any particular reason why the epilogue image should go on the bottom? Could it not be the other way round? Jayden Matthews 08:46, August 10, 2011 (UTC)

Basically, I feel that the most recognisable image—the image most associated with the character—should be in the top box, which are the characters as their seventeen-year old selves. The Epilogue pictures account for a total of a couple of minutes of screentime, while the proposed images from parts 1 and 2 accounted for the majority of the film. These are the versions of the characters that everyone is used to seeing, and most likely expect to see, which is the reason I feel they should be in the top box. To use Memory Alpha again as an example, their article on James T Kirk uses a picture from the Original 60s series in the top and one from the films in the bottom. I see two reasons for this - one, the top image is the most recognised and iconic version of Kirk. Secondly, it works chronologically; younger version at the top, elder at the bottom. - Cavalier One

^{(Wizarding Wireless Network)} 09:03, August 10, 2011 (UTC)

I understand what you're saying, I just don't get the theory that Harry has somehow spawned into a different character now that he's older. I mean he gets older in every film. He's still recognisably Harry. I can also envision this causing problems in the future. People will surely suggest using two images in future discussions as a way of making everyone happy. I know we can say that it's just for these characters, but you know what some people are like. It won't stop them from brining it up again at every vote. I fear we may be going down a slippery slope with this. Do we know how a two infobox image will affect the opening paragraph? I also think we have a few to many infoboxes on this site already. Jayden Matthews 09:58, August 10, 2011 (UTC)

I understand the reasoning here, but the problem is that no matter which option we go for, there will always be the "use the younger image" camp and the "use the older image" camp and they will fight back and forth over which image goes in the infobox. We already see it when infobox images are changed regularly just because one person thinks its better. Using the two image box is a compromise, sure, but one that will hopefully stop edit wars and image swapping. As for using it on other articles - well, no. We can ban the use of the epilogue infobox for all other articles and enforce it. Maybe we do have a few too many infoboxes on the site, and maybe we can address that soon (perhaps folding the student infoboxes into one with variable colour choices for example, but I digress). As for affecting the opening paragraph - it will do nothing to it. Adding the second image works just the same as adding additional fields to the infobox, so the infobox will only get longer. - Cavalier One

^{(Wizarding Wireless Network)} 10:14, August 10, 2011 (UTC)

We have always used the most recent images, so I don't see why we shouldn't now. However, I think we should wait until the DVD is released so we can get better quality pictures. -- SaXon 11:13, August 10, 2011 (UTC)

In a sense, these other pictures ARE also the most recent images, as they're from Deathly Hallows: Part 2, same as the epilogue pictures. As Cav, pointed out, there are primarily two camps on this issue (which based on these discussions, seems to be fairly evenly split), and it's not likely that either is going to win over the other. This option presents a compromise that may help to avoid pointless edit-warring in the future.

As for waiting, there's already been some edit-warring and calls to vote on the infobox images for several of these articles, and the DVD won't be out until probably around Christmas. - Nick O'Demus 12:27, August 10, 2011 (UTC)

I suppose there is some logic in that. I'm just thinking that if we're not going with the most recent appearance anymore then why bother with a DH image at all? Why not a GOF one, or a PS one even? What's the difference? If we regard 37 year Harry as being somehow seperate, or "different" from 17 year old Harry then why is 17 year old Harry not different from 11 year old Harry, or 15 year old Harry? As for the infoboxes, I agree we need to trim them down. The student ones would be a good place to begin. I also thought that we could adopt a more generic regard towards affiliation, like Wookieepedia do. So, for example a character like Granta Omega, who works for the Sith, but isn't one (and can never become one as he isn't force-sensitive) still gets a Sith infobox because that's where his loyalites lie. The main example on here that this would apply to is Greyback. This would alow us to get rid of those infoboxes that are only used by two or three characters. Anyway, I'm rambling. I'll stop now. Jayden Matthews 14:48, August 10, 2011 (UTC)

I'd say use the DH images for one simple reason - right now, on thousands of advertising billboards across the world, in magazines, and newspapers, these are the images being using to represent the HP franchise. People have certain expectations, and I think that using images from DH is needed to keep up with them. Remember, we write these articles with readers in mind (or we should be :P). If we have out of date images, what confidence will the reader have that the rest of the article is up to date? Also, practically, if we use a GOF image for Harry, someone will inevitably replace it for a DH one anyway and we'll be edit warring again. Better to nip it in the bud. - Cavalier One

^{(Wizarding Wireless Network)} 15:16, August 10, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I wasn't suggesting actually using an older image. I'm just saying that if keeping up to date is the issue then why not be truly up to date. But, hey. If we do go with the dual image infobox then I would suggest using the white-backed promos for all the characters to whom they apply. Jayden Matthews 15:31, August 10, 2011 (UTC)

Epilogue infobox images vote

NOTE: This only applies to the Harry Potter, Ronald Weasley, Hermione Granger, Ginevra Weasley, and Draco Malfoy articles.

Proposal 1: For greater consistency, these 5 articles will only use the "Epilogue" images. All other nominations will be discarded, and no other vote for these 5 will be held.
Proposal 2: Also for greater consistency, the "Epilogue" images will NOT be considered for nomination. Voting will be held as normal among nominated images of the characters' teenage selves.
Proposal 3: For these 5, specially created dual-image "Epilogue" infoboxes will be used, similar to ones in use on Memory Alpha. Voting will be held as usual for the first image among all nominations except "Epilogue" images. "Epilogue" images will be used as the second image by default. See here for an example of the dual-image infobox.

Normal voting policy applies. Users may vote for more than one proposal. Voting will close at 02:00 wiki-time on August 17th. Image nominations will remain open while this vote is held.

For Proposal 1 (+2)

-- Seth Cooper owl post! 02:12, August 10, 2011 (UTC)
--Rodolphus 08:48, August 10, 2011 (UTC)

For Proposal 2 (+0)

For Proposal 3 (+4)

Nick O'Demus 02:01, August 10, 2011 (UTC)
--BachLynn^{(Send an Owl!)} 03:19, August 10, 2011 (UTC)
Since I did propose the infobox :P - Cavalier One^{(Wizarding Wireless Network)} 07:57, August 10, 2011 (UTC)
Matoro183^(Talk) 13:20, August 10, 2011 (UTC)