Forum:James Potter and the Hall of Elders' Crossing

Forums: Index > The Wizengamot archive > James Potter and the Hall of Elders' Crossing

Recently, an anon posted "James potter and the hall of elders' crossing" (sic).

Ok, for those of you not in the know, James Potter and the Hall of Elders' Crossing is an unofficial continuation of the Harry Potter series written by G. Norman Lippert focusing on Harry's son, James.

While fan fiction of all kinds is banned here, I'm wondering if a special dispensation should be used in this case. The story has garnered quite a lot of attention, and even has the consent of J.K. Rowling herself.

Now, I'm not suggesting that any of the plot should be officially introduced into the canon articles, or that articles be made for new characters from the story. Perhaps, though, there is cause for an article on the story (and the history surrounding it), clearly marked as fan fiction/ out of universe/ fandom etc. I can see both sides of the argument, so I am throwing out the question: is this notable enough to be entered into the wiki or not? If the answer is yes, then we should bring the article up to a good standard. If not, it should be deleted. Thoughts and comments on this issue? - Cavalier One^{(Wizarding Wireless Network)} 13:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

As a sidenote, here are several links that may help your decision/ comments:

• Main site for James Potter and the Hall of Elders' Crossing
• James Potter and the Hall of Elders' Crossing at Wikipedia.

- Cavalier One^{(Wizarding Wireless Network)} 13:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Bumping for further attention. - Cavalier One^{(Wizarding Wireless Network)} 12:08, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Seems interesting, but i'm not going to get my hopes up. It gave me the option to download the book in PDF format so i'm going to check it out. Right away I can tell you i don't like how the main image on the page is exactly the same image as from the HP movies. I can see the author was trying to make a connection here, but i don't like that. Mafalda Hopkirk 12:54, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

PS. What I have gathered thus far is that Mrs. Norris is about 35-40 years old, at least. Mafalda Hopkirk 13:23, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I think we'd be getting in over our heads trying to set up notability standars for fan fiction. That being said, it is included on WP which is notorious for deleting fan fiction and fiction stff in general. Has it received any media attention? John Reaves (talk) 22:45, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I meant notable in the sense of the wider fandom, and interest to the Harry Potter community as a while. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I'm not trying to create a notability system for this wiki when it comes to fan fiction. As for media attention, the WP page has a few external references, and it certainly has come to the attention of Rowling herself, and she has even given consent for its release. I believe that this may be an exception to the rule of "no fan fiction", as long as it is properly tagged an no one tries to shoehorn the plot/ characters into canonical articles. - Cavalier One^{(Wizarding Wireless Network)} 22:51, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm fine with making an exception. We just have to be careful about setting a precedent. John Reaves (talk) 22:53, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Should have a notice on the top that it is not canon...-Matoro183 ^(Talk) 01:46, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Just for my part, i didn't care for it. I read up to page 30 and i couldn't take anymore. The first chapter was awesome, but the rest was just drivel in my opinion. Maybe it gets better later on but i just got the feeling the author was taking a lot of ideas that JKR invented herself in her own mind and just using them to set up his story. Maybe it would have been more interesting to me if it was James Potter I, Harry's dad. I really didn't like all the anti-American stuff, though it might be building up to something later. Also, why would an American wizard be teaching in Scotland, and why would an American kid be going to Hogwarts? The author says its because his dad is working in Britain or something that year, but why wouldn't they just send him to the American school regardless? I also have a really hard time believing Slughorn was still alive let alone able to teach by 2017, and i just find it stupendous that Mrs. Norris was around. Even if she's part kneazle theres no way she could be alive when James Potter II went to Hogwarts. Anyway just my opinion, i guess this is a bit ranty, lol. Mafalda Hopkirk 06:07, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it should be included because it is just fan fiction theirfore not cannon.Me_Potter_Fan 05:58, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I am the author of the story in question (James Potter and the Hall of Elders' Crossing. I 've seen a number of hits coming to my sites from this page, and thought I'd just say a big thank you for even considering this question. I would, of course, be tremendously honored to see this story included in the Harry Potter Wiki, and I do understand some of the concerns of those who'd rather it not be. I do have a few ideas to add to the conversation.

Mainly, I suspect that the primary reasons HP fanfictions have not typically been included in the HP Wiki is that fanfictions are often 1) AU (Alternate Universe), 2) adult-oriented (sexually explicit), or 3) rather amateurish and unknown.

Addressing the first issue: As was mentioned elsewhere, JPHEC takes place long after the events of Ms. Rowling's series (apart from the Epilogue of DH, which happens at the beginning of the upcoming James Potter sequel, http://www.gatekeeperscurse.com ). Thus, while not canon, it certainly does not challenge, alter, or nullify any of the existing HP canon, as does AU fanfiction.

Addressing the second issue: JPHEC was written very consciously for the same audience as the original series, with none of the adult overtones that many readers (and parents of readers) would find offensive and inappropriate.

And finally, addressing the third point, the sheer volume of readers (approximately 1,000,000 at last count) and enthusiastic reviewers of JPHEC do seem to indicate that it is a rather unusually well-crafted and enjoyable example of the fan fiction genre. Having foregone the typical fanfiction outlets and resorted to an exclusive distribution via its own website, JPHEC has exerted a unique impact on the HP fandom. The mere fact that the story made enough international news to warrant the specific attentions of Warner Bros. and J. K. Rowling herself, resulting in her official sanction, seems to imply a new category of Harry Potter-themed fiction that could well deserve the eye of the Harry Potter Wiki.

Either way, I will be watching this forum with interest to see what is the result. Gnormanlippert 05:58, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi Lippert! I have a question - How is it that certain characters are still alive in your story. Specifically Hagrid, Slughorn and Mrs. Norris. Second question - Could you define the term adult overtones, as well as what you mean by offensive and inappropriate? I think that for the wiki, it would be good to mention it on a page but not to go into detail and have it have its own article. That sets up conflicts for other fan fiction that other authors also feel are noteworthy and sanctioned, if not by JKR, by other fans. Mafalda Hopkirk 16:47, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Lippert, I am most honoured that you have taken time to visit the site. Could you explain what you mean by 'resulting in her official sanction' actually means please? This would help clear up this issue as, if J.k. Rowling has said that your story is fine by her, then I think until she says otherwise, your story is cannon. However, If it means that she has congratulated you on a fine story, then I do not see that as constituting as cannon. Thanks for your time -Lysander Scamander 17:07, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I am quite happy to answer your questions to the best of my ability, Mafalda and Lysander.

Regarding the question of how certain original characters are still alive by the time James Potter attends Hogwarts, the most honest answer is because I like them, and because I knew that readers would find some degree of comfort in encountering some of those classic, familiar names. Certainly, characters such as Filch, Slughorn, and McGonagall would all be quite old by this time, but not as old, methinks, as Albus Dumbledore was in Harry's first year. My understanding of the magical world is that there is a rather different attitude towards age. I expect individuals live rather longer, if they so wish, and do not experience much, if any, degradation of their mental faculties. Also, the magical world strikes me as a place where age (and therefore experience) are quite highly respected. Thus, older teachers at a school such as Hogwarts would be the norm. The only one that I think might have been a mistake is Mrs. Norris, who does seem to have lived unusually long. My personal explanation is that Mrs. Norris is a Kneazle, and we don't know much about their lifespans. Perhaps she will still be there when James' children are attending Hogwarts. Maybe she'll even be headmistress! (shudder!)

The second question was whether I could define the term "adult overtones" in Harry Potter fanfiction. I expect that anyone who has perused any Harry Potter-themed fanfictions has discovered that quite a lot of it (if not the majority) features adult language, sexual situations, rather creative homosexual pairings, overt violence and, at the very least, ambiguous morality (such as the "evil Harry" alternate universe stories). Strictly speaking, I would define adult overtones as any introduction of adult sexuality, appetites, or language into a universe that was originally created for children. Maintaining the innocence and virtue of Ms. Rowling's intent is of the utmost importance.

Lastly, let me expand on what I meant by receiving Ms. Rowling's "official sanction". While there are surely millions of HP fanfiction stories circulating the Internet, James Potter and the Hall of Elders' Crossing created enough buzz and controversy to warrant the attention of J. K. Rowling herself. When I contacted her via her agent, they agreed to peruse an advance copy of the story. Subsequently, they told me that they had no problem with the release of the story. In fact, as a direct result, Ms. Rowling released an official announcement that she approved of HP fanfictions as long as they, like JPHEC, were appropriate for children, were not hateful to any ethnic groups, and were not attributed to Ms. Rowling.

To be clear, I did not constitute that as any bestowing of canonical value to JPHEC. I am of the opinion that only stories that have been published in book form and specifically "canonized" by Ms. Rowling herself could ever be true HP canon. Still, I did work very hard to assure that no event in my stories denies, nullifies, or reduces any established part of Ms. Rowling's original world. I have even attempted to incorporate all the little details Ms. Rowling has released post DH, such as the names of progeny, the futures of certain teachers, future pairings and relationships, etc. This becomes much more of an issue in the upcoming sequel, James Potter and the Curse of the Gatekeeper, which includes Epilogue characters Scorpius Malfoy, Rose Weasley, and the relationship between Ted Lupin and Victoire Weasley.

I do hope that helps, and thank you much for your attention.

Gnormanlippert 10:04, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you that age is respected but my question would be if physiologically the characters could still be alive. Slughorn was middle-aged when Voldemort was a student. Hagrid in particular is half-giant and giants (the pc term is ..?) live about half as long as "normal" humans (similar to the life expectancies of Little People). If Mrs Norris' long lifespan is credited to her kneazle blood, i wish i had a kneazle. That would be fantastic.

The other things you wrote us about - are you referring to the series in general or other fan fictions?

Thanks, Mafalda Hopkirk 15:56, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

In JPHEC, there is a professor named Theodore Jackson who teaches a rather dense subject called Technomancy. Ted Lupin, as a student of that class, explains that a joke amongst the seventh years is that when you are in doubt in Technomancy class, just say "quantum". The idea is that the word "quantum" is a sort of general explanation for anything that is too technical to grasp. Similarly, I tend to think that virtually anything can be explained in the magical world by the mere fact that it is, err, magical. For instance, Hagrid may have been blessed with his unusual longevity by eating the produce from his garden, which perhaps he has unwittingly cultivated to be unnaturally healthy because of certain magical fertilizers he has secretly experimented with. Seems like a very Hagrid thing to do, methinks. Mrs. Norris could be particularly long-lived because Filch, being so attached to her, has sent away for some rather illicit mail-order magical pet-care products. Filch himself might be long-lived because he tested those products on himself before giving them to her. Again, this seems like a very Filch thing to do. In short, while it required the Philosopher's Stone for Nicholas Flemmel to reach his extreme longevity, I can well imagine that more pedestrian long-age (two-hundred years or so) can be attained in the magical world with potions, charms, or other magical techniques.

At the same time, I believe that Ms. Rowling created her Potter universe to serve the stories she wanted to create, and not the other way around. The result is that virtually anything can be justified creatively if the story wants it to be. For myself, I wanted those characters in the story. I thought they added some fun and familiarity, and could be explained with a little creative imagining. Other characters had since passed on, such as Hagrid's hound, Fang, and many others. This seems believable to me, overall. In fact, there will be more such "realism" in book 2.

As far as my other comments, I'm not sure what you were asking about. I believe I was mostly referring to fanfictions. I, of course, have nothing but the greatest love and respect for Ms. Rowling's Harry Potter books. Gnormanlippert 12:31, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

If i personally don't buy the healthy garden produce or the mail-order cat life-extending pills that's just my own personal issue with the characters in your work of fan fiction. I just was wondering if you had considered that in writing the characters into the story. My other question was asking if you mean the adult language and creative pairings you mentioned are present in other fan fictions or in the original series. Mafalda Hopkirk 19:25, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Like all readers, I understand that you bring your personal impressions to a story such as JPHEC, Mafalda. I hear quite clearly that you didn't appreciate the inclusion of some of those original characters, and the point is duly noted. As a matter of fact, the sequel sees Slughorn retired, and McGonagall retired from her role as headmistress. There are a few other such changes, but I'd hate to give anything away for the rare individual who might wish to avoid a spoiler.

Regarding the "adult language and creative pairings", I was most definitely referring to other fan fictions and not the original series.

If I may be so bold, it seems apparent that my story, being merely fan fiction, should not be included in the Harry Potter Wiki. It certainly would cause disgruntled complaints from others who would wish to see their fan fictions also included. One could argue that only fan fictions that reach a certain level of global attention would deserve inclusion, but this is rather hard to gauge. Either way, it opens up the official Harry Potter universe to a carnival of unofficial, non-canon and generally non-J. K. Rowling miscellany which would only tend to confuse the point of the Wiki. I'd rather see the HP Wiki remain true to its vision than become entrenched in jurying fan fictions, even if it means mine is also excluded. Gnormanlippert 20:56, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

In regards to Cav's original question, I see no problem with Mr. Lippet's Book being added to articles as long as it is clearly stated that it is not cannon. I think it's wonderful that a fan fiction has reached such high aclaim and would be happy to see information about it added in to articles. Lysander Scamander 18:07, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Adding James Potter & THEC page with permission from Seth Cooper Green Zubat 23:16, July 25, 2011 (UTC)