Of course, the most beautiful chapter of the whole Harry Potter series was the chapter King's Cross... when Voldemort puts the killing curse, avada kedavra, it could kill only one person or one soul....but at that time Harry standing there had two souls in his body..one of his own, whole and perfect and the other being the weak, severely destroyed soul of Voldemort. When the choice of whose soul would get destroyed by the killing curse occurred, it had to be Voldemort's. that child lying in the king's cross station was Voldemort's soul which couldn't be helped!!! now the beauty of the scene... Harry who has been struck by a killing curse goes into a trans stage also called as coma in the muggles world!!!! in coma or near death experience people often talk of tunnels and meetings with dead people!!! that is what happens here.. Harry goes to a tunnel or rather a station from where he can either come back or move on....and he meets Dumbledore who can explain everything to him.. when he finally decides to come back to fight... he awakens from the coma stage...and gains back his consiousness..he finds himself in the forest... the whole chapter being wat he sees in the near death experience so it is definitely going on in his mind.... hope that explains all..
I agree that this chapter is breathtakingly beautiful. I disagree that the killing curse could kill only one person or one soul in this instance. After Harry wakes up in the forest, it is clear that Voldemort was knocked down by the blast of the rebounding curse and is getting up at the same time as Harry is 'coming to'. Two souls were in Kings Cross station, Harry's and the raw baby that represents Voldemort's. Clearly either or both would have had the choice to take a train onward, but neither wanted to. We don't know if Voldemort was free to return if Harry had decided not to, because Harry did decide to return himself. It is known that Voldemort still had one Horcrux outstanding (Nagini) so if he decided to move onward, it would only have been under condition of remorse, which would have been extremely painful to him. It should be noted that the name Kings Cross is an obvious reference to Jesus the Messiah (Chosen One, King) and his death on a Cross. We are meant to see that Harry has chosen to sacrifice himself the same as Jesus, surviving death in much the same way, and with the same salvific efficacy. His voluntary act of self-sacrifice will make all of Voldemort's subsequent curses nonbinding, as we will see in the chapters that follow. DavidWallis 07:26, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
Before I get bogged down in my comment, I just want to add that I am writing this one almost three weeks after my last in this forum. DavidWallis, that is a very interesting theory regarding Rowling's choice of 'Kings Cross' Station referencing Jesus Christ's sacrifice. It would make sense that she would add some small, subtle hint of religion into her books considering that she tried to leave complete religious beliefs out of her storyline altogether; apparently to avoid an obvious plot-ending. Can I just disagree with you on one thing, though? When Voldemort tried to use Avada Kedavra on Harry in chapter 35 of 'the Deathly Hallows', Voldemort didn't collapse as a result of the curse rebounding onto him, but because of the deep-rooted connection between the two adversaries. Harry's soul entered that purgatory like place with Voldemort (however little of him) in tow. The reason being because of the destruction of the fragment of soul in Harry's body combined with the bond of Lily Potter's 'Love' sacrifice being in both of their blood. What the Death Eaters around the fire would have seen when Harry entered their clearing (Aragog's old lair) would have been the following: Voldemort hitting Harry with the Killing Curse (which did not rebound or else the soul fragment wouldn't have been destroyed), and Harry and Voldemort collapsing simultaneously, the latter with no visible means.--Yin&Yang 08:29, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
I have no idea what happened in this chapter please could u explain it in GREAT GREAT detail please Tbail 01:55, 6 July 2009 (UTC) -->
So, in Chapter 35 "King's Cross" Harry has been killed - or more to the point, the part of Voldemort's Soul that was attached to Harry when he tried to kill Harry as a baby, is killed. It's not entirely explained whether the place he is in is a sort of purgatory or whether it is all in his mind. I'm inclined to believe the latter.
Dumbledore then tells him that he can 'go on' or 'go back'. This simply means that he could choose to die or stay alive. Hope this helps. Lysander Scamander 20:05, 7 July 2009 (UTC) P.S. I'm back everyone =)
- Harry finds himself alone and naked in an otherworldly place. Hearing noise, he wishes for and receives clothing, then notices a hideous, child-like creature, nude and with flayed-looking skin, curled up on the ground. Dumbledore appears and lovingly greets Harry. He explains that when Voldemort took some of Harry's blood as his own, he thereby tethered his life to Harry's; Harry cannot die while Voldemort lives. Because he willingly sacrificed himself, Harry also is protecting his friends, shielding them during the duels with Voldemort, just as Lily had protected Harry by sacrificing herself. Moreover, rather than killing Harry, Voldemort's curse destroyed the seventh Horcrux within Harry's body.
- Dumbledore also guesses that the reason the two brother wands interacted as they did during Harry's escape from Privet Drive is that after Harry and Voldemort's blood was joined, their wands, already connected by identical magical cores, and now wielded by wizards who shared not only pieces of their souls but also their blood, merged even closer. Furthermore, during Harry and Voldemort's duel, Harry was the stronger; Voldemort feared death, while Harry embraced the possibility. Harry's wand thus imbibed some powers from Voldemort's, making it more powerful than Lucius Malfoy's wand. That wand, even when wielded by Voldemort, was easily overpowered by Harry's. But why then, Harry asks, was Hermione's wand able to break his? Dumbledore speculates that Harry's wand was abnormally powerful only when it was directed against Voldemort, who it sensed was Harry's mortal enemy, as well as being his blood kin.
- Harry asks where they are, although he himself suggests it resembles a deserted King's Cross station. He then addresses more important issues: the Hallows. Dumbledore asks Harry's forgiveness for withholding information about the Deathly Hallows. Dumbledore says he was obsessed with the Hallows in his youth, eager to escape death, and equally eager to shine and attain glory, while Aberforth looked on in disgust. That is why he resented having to care for his mother and sister, and the reason he was so happy to befriend Gellert Grindelwald. The two young wizards bonded over their mutual search for the Deathly Hallows. An undefeatable wand would surely help them rise to power in the wizarding world. Dumbledore wanted the Resurrection Stone to reunite his family, but Grindelwald saw it as a means to procure an Inferi army. And while neither had much interest in the Invisibility Cloak, as both were proficient in disillusionment, Dumbledore thought it could be used to hide Ariana.
- Their friendship was short-lived, however, and the two got into a fight, along with Aberforth, over Dumbledore's family. Somehow, a curse went astray and fatally hit Ariana. Grindelwald fled and started on his rampage, but Dumbledore delayed dueling him, fearing he might learn who actually killed Ariana. Eventually, and after much bloodshed and desperate pleas from the wizarding world, he felt obliged to confront his former friend and defeated him - thereby winning the Elder Wand. Dumbledore learned that Grindelwald lied to Voldemort when he said he never owned the Elder Wand, perhaps trying to protect Dumbledore in a belated remorseful act. Finally, when Dumbledore retrieved the Peverell Ring, knowing it was a Horcrux, and discovered that it was in fact the Resurrection Stone, he gave in to temptation and put the ring on. He says that he was hoping to once again see his mother and his sister. But putting it on his finger triggered a curse that was to claim his life within a year.
- By withholding this information about the Hallows, Dumbledore hoped it would take Harry longer to find them, thus giving him more time to understand their true nature and avoid the temptation for greed and power that he had felt. Death's true master, he says, is the one who does not seek to run away from it.
- Finally, Dumbledore tells Harry that he has a choice: if he chooses, he can head to a platform, and he would likely find a train that would take him onwards, or he can return to the living world for a chance to finish Voldemort. Harry chooses to return, but he first asks Dumbledore if their conversation has been real or is it only in his mind. Dumbledore responds, "Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean it is not real?" -- Seth Cooper (Owl Post) 20:59, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Lovely chapter-pivotal point of Harry's story.Still Learning 12:15, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
I could not agree more Still Learning. That was a very detailed analysis of that chapter. Might I add a small piece of information that you just left out? The fact that Dumbledore had no recognition of the place he and Harry were in implies that "to each his own". In other words, any other human being who may have entered this Purgatory-like dimension would have experienced a different view of the surroundings depending on their personality and interests. Dumbledore says himself, "This is, as they say, your party". For Harry, King's Cross epitomized the beginning of a journey that he took (almost) every year to the only place he ever truly felt at home: Hogwarts. This is the reason why, of all places, King's Cross Station was chosen (perhaps sub-consciously) as a medium for explaining the concept of moving "on" or the returning to the world of the living. By boarding the Hogwarts Express in this limbo world, Harry would have officially died. What is slightly strange about this chapter, though, is that Dumbledore and Harry are both implied to agree on the possibility that Voldemort might win and succeed in murdering Harry Potter. This, however, could not be true considering the fact that Harry remained immortal so long as Voldemort lived. Presumably, with Voldemort's death, Harry would have once again become mortal.
Funnily enough, as of the the chapter 'Flesh, Blood and Bone' in the Goblet of Fire, Harry was never in any real danger of dying. He was immortal and therefore wasted his time by ducking and weaving his way past Killing Curses during the last four books. This was probably the main reason why Dumbledore never planned to help Harry in any other way besides teaching him of Voldemort's past - he had utter faith in the fact that without the Horcruxes, Harry's most powerful attribute, love, would spare his life from any attack. Hence, had Voldemort repeatedly struck Harry with Avada Kedavra, Harry would have just kept on returning to life before finally hitting Voldemort with a Killing Curse of his own. This is all hypothetical of course. I think what I just described would detract from Harry's innocense a little. On the whole, Lord Voldemort/Tom Riddle/the Dark Lord/He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named/You-Know-Who, NEVER really had a chance against Harry Potter - the Boy Who Lived/the Chosen One - after the events of the Goblet of Fire. J.K Rowling, I tip my hat to you. What a genious.--Yin&Yang 13:53, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
Those answers were amazing! I would like to point out that if Harry did end up "going in a coma" as we muggles put it =) before Dumbledore's death would he still see Dumbledore? It is the connection of the souls that brought them to this place together, but would it matter if the physical body that hold's the soul was alive or dead? GinnyPi 02:19, September 30, 2009 (UTC)
That is a very interesting question. Now unless J.K. Rowling contradicts me completely, I would say that it matters hugely if Dumbledore was alive or dead before Harry's "death scene". Dumbledore was a great wizard but even he could not communicate with the dead or 'semi-dead' (if that's a better term in Harry's case). Otherwise, he would never have needed the resurrection stone to greet his dead mother and sister. So, Harry's meeting with Dumbledore in limbo could only be possible if Dumbledore himself was dead. If Dumbledore had not been tempted to put the cursed Horcrux/Resurrection Stone on his finger and therefore never died, we can assume that someone else from the world of the dead would have contacted Harry. As we all know, Harry unfortunately had a lot of loved ones to possibly have met with at that stage; his parents, Sirius, Lupin and Dobby to name a few. However, Dumbledore (being dead), as you so rightly put it GinnyPi, had a special connection with Harry and so was the one to meet him half-way between life and death. I hope that answers your question and please don't hesitate to ask more!--Yin&Yang 12:01, October 1, 2009 (UTC)
I must say this is the longest list of responses I have ever seen or such an easy Question !!!!!! lol....read the whole thing and you will understand Harry Potter better than J.K Rowling !!!!!--Beautiful altar 08:45, October 18, 2009 (UTC)
Lol, yes this one is a little too long and I have a lot to do with that. I think I tend to write so much because of just how complex Harry Potter is. I really feel the need to do it justice.--Yin&Yang 08:49, October 18, 2009 (UTC)
haha....i prefer short responses...not writing essays ....... lets just hope sumone reads this ....otherwise we will just keep writing these things and no one will read it..--Beautiful altar 05:45, October 19, 2009 (UTC)
I read the whole thing through, cuz' it was one of the most intriguing scenes in the whole book! I've never been so emotional by just reading books as it was with Harry Potter, especially the last three. Well, anyways, I've been thinking about this scene for quite a long time :)
And I think you're quite right.
The only thing I quite disagreed on was the theory about King's Cross being a religious reference, because it just didn't occur to me (I'm an atheist, but I don't want to insult anybody with this) and also believe that King's Cross was, for Harry, the place where he went to the place were everything was peaceful (in life that was Hogwarts, in this coma it is death, which was, as Harry said/thought himself, peaceful) or to the place were everything quite sucked (at first the Dursley's, and now a place full of misery and death, and Voldemort)
I also think that, Dumbledore was there, not because the man himself is dead, but because Harry was very confused and needed answers, and Dumbedore appeared, just like the clothing Harry needed.
And this Dumbledore wasn't real, but just Harry's memory of him.
This is because Harry already knew all the answers that Dumbledore gave him then (maybe not about the wand, but he could have guessed it) but Harry wanted to hear it from Dumbledore himself, because he felt so abandoned and betrayed when he first heard about Dumbledore's past.
But this is just my opinion, please tell me what you think, I'd really love to find new aspects :)
I've done a lot of research, and J.K. Rowling never really spoke about what limbo really is. On Rowling's official site however she said:
"That Harry survived because his mother's protection in Voldemort was keeping him alive, and because the Elder Wand would not kill its own master. However, the killing curse was/is so powerful that it gave Harry an iron-clad bruise, and it did destroy the part of Voldemort that was inside Harry. Harry went into a limbo state (like a coma). Limbo is a place between life and death." She also said that the mutilated baby was the piece of Voldemort's soul that was in Voldemort. The killing curse was also so powerful that it gave Harry a choice to go to the land of the dead."
Here's what I think,
Because Harry was in between life or death, he could speak to Dumbledore (Dumbledore may have not managed to come back to life, but could he go to limbo?). As it says above, people in real life say there are meetings with dead people in a coma (and limbo was exactly like a coma. I think JK Rowling was conferring limbo with peoples beliefs of what happens in comas!). Dumbledore also said in book 6 in the Horcruxes chapter that "Perhaps at the point of death, Voldemort might be aware of his loss. Remember, nearly all of Voldemort's Horcruxes were destroyed, he was on the point of death. Killing the part of himself inside Harry must have put him in a limbo state too! Who knows what happens when nearly all your soul's destroyed? And when Voldemort died, he could not "move on" or come back as a ghost, meaning he could not travel to the land of the dead. He had no place left to go but a place between life and death", otherwise known as limbo.
I see some people are unconvinced that "King's Cross" is a religious reference. I'm pretty sure that it is, because JKR is explicit on her website that Harry Potter went into a "limbo state" which is a distinctly Christian concept. Indeed, her whole outlook can only be understood in terms of Christian theology, though she very much tries to hide anything explictly religious in the six books and 34 chapters preceeding this. She avoids religious references so much that she rarely chooses even a biblical first name for a character, though they are quite common in the UK and have been for centuries. Thus, "King's Cross" sticks out like a sore thumb and is anything but subtle. It's sudden appearance after such an obvious dearth of religious references hits us over the head. Because JKR is so careful to choose meaningful names in her series, it is simply not possible that it is meaningless. Since Horcruxes make hash of the Christian concept of the soul, hers is a post-Christian viewpoint, and I have no idea how orthodox she is in her personal beliefs. She may well be as agnostic as an Anglican bishop, but she knows the language of Christian theology and that is what is used (or butchered) in her series.
Some people are also unconvinced that the killing curse rebounded off of Harry Potter onto Voldemort, apparently under the mistaken impression that a metaphysical reality need have no physical mainfestation. Such is not the case in Christian theology. However, that is a weak argument in JKR's case since she does not confine herself to Christian theology. More to the point, the killing curse rebounded off of Harry as an infant, (because of his mother's protection according to JKR). Here a very similar thing occurs, though not identical. Harry was supposed to have lost that protection on his 17th birthday, yet he is still protected somehow, and he is thus encouraged by the shades of his parents and Sirius and Remus to follow the normally fatal path into danger that brings him into Voldemort's presence. The killing curse is understood to be a very powerful curse. If it does not accomplish its killing task it destroys physical barriers or rebounds, or both. This we know, it has been demonstrated to us several times now in the series. We see that Harry still lives, although in a 'Limbo state', thus there must have been either physical destruction or rebound, and in this case there is no evidence of physical destruction, thus there must have been a rebound, else a plot hole. Which leaves the question of how Harry was protected in this instance, if not his mother's blood. The answer is that Harry is a Horcrux, and thus is tied to the physical plane. He cannot (completely) leave this plane until he is separated from Voldemort's soul fragment. Thus he ends up in Limbo instead of some more permanent afterlife and is free to return to this plane or move on into the afterlife once he is free of the baby soul fragment. DavidWallis 19:12, August 29, 2011 (UTC)
I think you're a bit confused. The Killing Curse did not rebound on Voldemort in the forest. If it had of done, his body would have been destroyed, as it was on the night he lost power. Voldemort falling unconscious was a result of the bond between himself and Harry being broken, which happened when he accidently destroyed the fragment of his own soul in Harry's body. All wizards arrive in limbo after they die, at which point they have to choose between moving on into the next life, or returning as a ghost. Harry, however, had the option of returning to his body, and continue living. This happened because Voldemort took Harry's own blood into his body, and, with it, Lilly's sacrificial protection. This protection was meant for Harry and Harry alone. When he cast the Killing Curse on Harry in the forest Lilly's protection was working through Voldemort, which was why the Killing Curse singled out his own soul fragment for destruction, and left Harry's soul unscathed. This is why Dumbledore insisted to Snape that Voldemort had to be the one to kill Harry. Had anyone else cast that curse, Harry would have died. Jayden Matthews 19:54, August 29, 2011 (UTC)
As I said, if the killing curse did not rebound on Voldemort in this instance, then it creates a plot hole. It wouldn't be the first, plot holes abound left and right in every single book of the series. Nevertheless, Voldemort falling unconscious is evidence that a rebound did occur, just as implied in the metaphysics of the situation. You assume that the metaphysics alone can cause a wizard to fall unconscious, contrary to the usual laws of metaphysics. I assume that a metaphysical cause and effect manifests on the physical plane as a physical cause and effect, as per normal metaphysics. I also assume that in this case Harry absorbed more of the killing curse than when he was a baby (after all, he ends up in Limbo, whereas before he only got a scar.) So Voldemort is only knocked unconcious this time rather than having his body destroyed. Since the baby was still alive in Limbo, it seems unreasonable to assume that the connection with Voldemort was broken until after Harry left the baby behind in Limbo. You assume that Limbo is a normal waystation for all wizards. We have no evidence of that from JKR canon. You're also assuming that only wizards can become ghosts, and that is also something you're reading into canon. (These are not unreasonable choices, but they are your interpretation.) My own assumptions are that anybody can become a ghost, just like in the traditions that are JKR's sources, but only wizards (and possibly others with special psychic abilities) can see them. Limbo in Christian theology is not a normal waystation for adults, it is the theological equivalent of "I don't know" translated into metaphysics for the case of innocents who die in infancy. The normal ghost in most traditions is a spirit that refuses to depart this plane, even in the absence of a functioning body, either because they have unfinished business (identifying their killer for instance) or because they are afraid of what lies ahead (because of guilt). They never get even as far as Limbo. I would also point out that Lily's protection was scheduled to end on Harry's 17th birthday, so at this point neither Harry nor Voldemort should have it. Harry ends up in Limbo because he is the innocent sacrificial victim. He is offered the choice to go back, not as a ghost, but into his own body, resurrected. This is highly unusual, but follows the pattern of Jesus, making the reference to Kings Cross unambiguously religious. Harry left behind the Horcrux in Limbo, and since it cannot live without a physical host, it died when it was abandoned. DavidWallis 21:42, August 29, 2011 (UTC)
I just remembered one more clinching argument as to why the killing curse had to have rebounded in this instance: In no other case where a Horcrux was destroyed was Voldemort physically affected. If indeed it was the Horcrux in Harry being destroyed that caused Voldemort to fall unconscious, then killing Nagini should have had the same effect, and it didn't. Instead, Voldemort isn't even able to sense when one of his Horcruxes has been destroyed. He feels nothing. DavidWallis 22:55, August 29, 2011 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but you've got it completely wrong. You're taking things into consideration that simply aren't relevant. Metaphysics and Christian theology, for example. Not only did the Killing Curse not rebound, it could not have rebounded. One does not "absorb" certain amounts of the Killing Curse. It touches you, and you die. Harry survived because of his mother's protection, and Voldemort survived because of his Horcruxes, though his body was destroyed. Had the curse rebounded on him in the forest he would have been disembodied once more, as he still had one Horcrux left. There is no plot hole there. Harry's scar was a result of Voldemort's soul fragment forcing it's way into his body. Rowling herself has said this. No I'm not assuming only wizards can become ghosts. Nearly Headless Nick excplicitly says so in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix.
- Nearly Headless Nick: "Nearly Headless Nick hesitated, then said, Not everyone can come back as a ghost."
- Harry: "What d'you mean? said Harry quickly"
- Nearly Headless Nick: "Only ... only wizards."
- — Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix
I'm also not assuming that every wizard arrives in Limbo. Rowling herself has said so, although Limbo itself manifests itself differently for each wizard. As to why Voldemort fell unconscious in the forest and not when his other Horcruxes where destroyed, the answer is simple. None of his other Horcruxes where attached to another human soul. Harry's soul and Voldemort's soul fragment had been joined together for nearly 17 years, which is why the destruction of one caused both to travel to Limbo.
As for Lilly's protection, yes, in the traditional sense it would have ended when Harry came of age, but Voldemort kept it alive when he took Harry's blood into his body. Dumbledore knew that if Voldemort ever attempted to kill Harry again he would only end up destroying his own soul fragment, hence the "gleam of triumph" in his eyes when Harry retold what happened in the graveyard. As I said before this is why Dumbledore informed Snape that Voldemort had to be the one to kill Harry.
Sorry this took so long, but I wanted to help you understand fully. Jayden Matthews 13:21, August 30, 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, but you've created even more plot holes! Why would stealing Lily's protection (thus compromising it to the point of worthlessness, as demonstrated in the graveyard) keep it alive? That simply makes no sense whatsoever. I'm willing to believe in a more rational explanation... as soon as I read one.
As for the soul attachment theory, I reject it flatly on the grounds that Harry obviously showed none of the soulish qualities of Voldemort, as would be exhibited if he had indeed absorbed the Horcrux. He rejects Voldemort's ideals and stands unalterably opposed to them, he obsorbs none of his mannerisms or habits, and Voldemort's emotions are easily detected as foreign to him. Unlike some of the fanfiction, Harry remembers nothing of Voldemort's memories. Voldemort was unable to possess Harry, unlike Nagini; demonstrating emphatically that Harry had not absorbed anything that would have given Voldemort a toehold. Harry is merely a physical vessel, the same as the locket or the cup. Actually, even less than the locket because that was able to act in accord with Voldemort's will and bring division and dissension between the trio. I'm willing to believe that Lily's protection was what enabled Harry to resist the absorption of the Horcrux, which would have been very necessary when he was young, but I see nothing in JKR's canon that leads me to believe her protection was anything but compromised when Voldemort took Harry's blood. OTOH, Harry being a Horcrux would have tied him to the physical plane and prevented his actual death until the Horcrux was detached. After all, the whole point of a Horcrux is to tie the soul fragment to the physical plane.
Dumbledore early on decided that the prophesy was true and thus Voldemort was the only one who could kill Harry, and Harry was the only one who could kill Voldemort, however it should play out. Further events only confirmed the prophesy in his mind, although it is clear in retrospect that it was largely self-fulfilling by his own interferences in Harry's life. We are not told why Dumbledore had "a gleam of triumph", so again you're reading something into canon that's not there. It's one of those plot threads that JKR left dangling. However, I can say that the biblical perspective is that the life of the soul resides in the blood. (There's a verse in Leviticus somewhere to that effect.) If that is what JKR had in mind, then logically it would have given Harry some power over Voldemort because he was partaking of Harry's soul and thus vulnerable to absorbing from it. As I said, it's not a theme that JKR followed through with. If you prefer that as an explanation of why Voldemort fainted in the forest, go for it, but Lily's protection is untenable.
Above, I talked about Voldemort's soul as if the baby was the entire thing, not just the Horcrux. I'd like to correct that. The baby was rather clearly intended to represent only a small part of Voldemort's adult soul. If JKR had intended for more than the Horcrux to be there, she would have had two entities present, most likely a mutilated adult and the flayed baby. The point of it being a baby is that it depended upon it's host for survival. The Horcrux had no choice but to be tied to the physical plane because of the magic that created it, therefore it could not have taken a train into the afterlife, contrary to my earlier speculation.
[[Special:Contributions/22.214.171.124|DavidWallis 06:44, August 31, 2011 (UTC)]]
David, you're rejecting things that J.K. Rowling herself has said. You say Harry exibited none of Voldemort's traits. In actual fact he exibited many of Voldemort's traits, chiefly among them, his abillity to talk to snakes. In fact it is expressely stated that the bond between Harry and Voldemort was the reason why the former was almost sorted into Slytherin. You say Harry shared none of Voldemort's thoughts, feelings or memories. I'm especially astounded that you said this, given that one of the main narrative devices in the books are the flashes into Voldemort's mind that Harry experiances. You say Voldemort could not posses Harry. Yes he could, and does so in Order of the Phoenix, but the experience is so painful for him he is forced out.
Rather than explain everything again I'll just provide excerts from the book to prove my point.
The matter of Harry's blood, and Lily's protection:"He took my blood", said Harry.
"Precisely!" said Dumbledore. "He took your blood and rebuilt his body with it! Your blood in his veins, Harry, Lily's protection inside both of you!
"He took your blood believing it would strengthen him. He took into his body a tiny part of the enchantment your mother laid upon you when she died for you. His body keeps her sacrifice alive, and while that enchantment survives, so do you and so does Voldemort's one last hope for himself."
As for the "gleam of truimph" it is not a plot hole that Rolwing just left hanging. In fact she states the significance of it in this interview
I hope that helps clear this matter up. Jayden Matthews 09:41, August 31, 2011 (UTC)
You look at things very differently than I do. I look on Voldemort's inability to possess Hary as proof that his Horcrux was ineffective in penetrating Harry's protection. That seems logical to me. You look on the attempt as completion of the act, which seems illogical to me. Yes, there was communication between Harry's soul and the Horcrux, but it did not amount to anything as powerful as possession, or even create a foothold that would enable possession, nor was it powerful enough to allow Harry free access to the fragment of Voldemort within him. The two soul units were always distinct entities in one body.
At the time Dumbledore said those words you quote, Lily's protection was active. At the time Chapter 35 of Book 7 takes place, it it gone. Period! Rowling says in the interview that it is significant, nothing more. In the end, she failed to come through with that theme and it became rather unimportant. Dumbledore proposes a thesis that is logically untenable, which is probably why JKR had to abandon the theme. (Why would a magical body working at cross purposes behind the lines of magical blood protection and thereby negating it keep that protection alive beyond its time? Lily's protection was unnecessary at the time to sustain the lives of either Harry or Voldemort, contrary to Dumbledore's expressed words. The senex was simply, provably, wrong in this instance. If what he said is true, both Harry and Voldemort would die on Harry's 17th birthday, which did not happen. Instead, book 7 has a ridiculous sequence wherein 7 Harrys leave Privet Dr in fear for his life because the protection has ended.) Note that I do not take what JKR says outside her canon as being authoritative. She can, and does, say things in direct contradiction to what she has written.
You can cease and desist from trying to convince me otherwise if that is what you are trying to do. You aren't even close to convincing me of even one of your arguments. I have carried my arguments as far as I have time for, and far enough to convince any who are not entrenched in their opinion, so I will not be responding further.
DavidWallis 14:54, August 31, 2011 (UTC)
Just so you know the futility of your argument, if you should happen to somehow prove that Lily's protection was still active, then that would be an additional proof that the AK in the forest did rebound, since that is what AK does when it encounters Lily's protection. DavidWallis 15:18, August 31, 2011 (UTC)
The quote I provided you with is from the very same chapter we are discussing. King's Cross. I suggest you read it again. The curse did not rebound in the forest because Lily's protection was no longer active in Harry, but in Voldemort.
The fact that you don't consider the words of the author "authorative" is proof of how futile this conversation is. Everything I have said has been backed up by a direct quote from the book. Whereas nearly everything you have said has been prefixed with "I assume". That being said it is clearly you who is entrenched in your own opinion.
If you are seriously so astoundingly arrogant as to think that you know better than the author of the series then I bid you good day. The bottom line is you're wrong, and I have proven that. Jayden Matthews 15:43, August 31, 2011 (UTC)
- In case you no longer have access to a copy of the book I will provide you with a scan of the relevant page. Please take note of the chapter title in the top right hand corner. Jayden Matthews 16:38, August 31, 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry Jayden, but you are the one in error. Your quote simply does not exist in the current Scholastic editions of the book, and even if it were, it does not change the fact that Dumbledore can be wrong. He even says so himself. The relevant passage now simply mentions a trimphant gleam in Dumbledore's eye without any explanation or reason whatsoever. You can blame JKR if you refuse to be wrong. DavidWallis 20:44, September 17, 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry for a bit of misunderstanding. The scanned page above is unreadable. Therefore I looked in Goblet of Fire for the relevant quotes, and didn't find them. I have now found them in the Kings Cross chapter (having borrowed a copy of DH from the library). As for the rest, I stand behind my argument as developed above:
- The Killing Curse did rebound (because it failed to separate Harry's soul from his body, and it also failed to destroy Harry's body--it only left him bruised.) Since AK is an very powerful curse, it always does SOMETHING destructive, therefore it had to have rebounded. Voldemort falling to the ground unconscious is proof of this.
- Harry being a HORCRUX is sufficient to cause the AK to fail. There is no need to postulate an illogical theory (such as Dumbledore proposes) that Lily's protection was somehow involved long after it was scheduled to end. (The only way that would have been possible is if stealing Harry's blood had caused him to stop aging, which it didn't.)
- As added insurance, Harry owned the Elder wand at the time, and it's magic was powerful enough to know when it was being used against its owner and refuse to kill him, though that gets into the messy business of what actions cause the Elder wand to change owners.
- Lily's protection was very powerful too, and so when the AK hit Harry as a baby, it did not send him into Limbo, instead it rebounded at full strength in Voldemort's face. In Chapter 34, otoh, a different mechanism was protecting Harry, and it was not as powerful, so the results were different. Harry absorbed enough of the curse to be sent into Limbo, but his protection prevented him from going farther. Therefore the curse rebounded, but with only enough force to knock Voldemort unconsious.
- JKR posed multiple theories in Chapter 35, not all of which are tenable. Jayden chose to believe the untenable theory, which I reject as being illogical. He also chose to believe that because Voldemort's body was not destroyed, the curse must not have rebounded. I understand his position fully. I reject it totally.
- DavidWallis 22:57, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
- Whoa...... I think you're a bit confused. Alright, now I'm going from memory here, but I recall an interview with J.K.R. that stated what really happened in that chapter. She said that Dumbledore's "gleam of triumph" from book 4 was because Voldemort took Harry's blood, which carried the protection of Lily Potter. While Voldemort had his soul split into eight pieces, making him immortal, Harry's blood running through Voldemort's veins essentially made Voldemort a Horcrux for Harry (and since Harry was Voldemort's accidental Horcrux, they tethered each other to life, albeit in different ways). When Voldemort used Avada Kedavra on Harry, it did not rebound. Instead, something much, much more complex occured. Voldemort used the Elder Wand, which recognized Harry as its master, but it didn't recognize the piece of Voldemort's soul as its master, so it connected with Harry anyway, seeking to destroy the piece of Voldemort's soul inside Harry. However, Avada Kedavra is an extremely powerful curse, so it should have killed Harry regardless, right? Wrong. Voldemort was still tethered to life by his last Horcrux (Nagini), and Harry's blood still flowed through the veins of the living Lord Voldemort, which tethered Harry to life. They were then both sent to limbo, Harry whole and unscathed, and Voldemort broken and damaged beyond repair.
- I hope this explanation helps. JDRooDigger(Owl Me) 23:30, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
- 100% correct. David, you need to click on the scan to view it at full size. At any rate, I told you which book and chapter it came from. The whole purpose of the chapter we are discussing is to explain why Harry survived in the forest, and how he came to be in Limbo. The whole chapter would be utterly pointless if Dumbledore's explanation was wrong, as you claim. Just for closure here is the interview with J.K. Rowling that JDRooDigger was refering to. In it she explicitly states the reason for Harry's surival. No doubt you will claim that she is wrong about her own work of fiction, just as you dismissed the quotes from the books that I provided. I hope we can now put this matter to rest. Jayden Matthews 15:26, October 24, 2011 (UTC)