Talk: Candidates for deletion/Archive 5/Unidentified lethal curse

Merge

Please do not remove my merge template. The existence of this page is sheer speculation and belongs elsewhere. 98.117.158.220 05:12, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

It is a canocial article backed up by several sources. Do not add the merge template again. Jayden Matthews 11:47, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

One source that just says "Harry Potter and the Order of the Pheonix" is not "several sources". I will be disscussing this with an admin. 98.117.158.220 06:18, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

Three sources actually. can't you count? Jayden Matthews 09:43, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

Can't you? Look at the "Notes and Refrences" section. 98.117.158.220 00:39, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

While this curse did not kill Sirius Black, an unidentified lethal curse did kill Bellatrix Lestrange. I say this article stays, but without the reference to Sirius Black. He died, because he fell through the Veil. --Hcoknhoj 00:59, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

That also works. I'll remove refrences to Sirius Black. 98.117.158.220 02:16, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

I really don't beleave that it's another curse, it's the same stupefy but when bellatrix and molly did it they felt to much angry and made the spell more powerfull.

There is now a seperate article for the curst that killed sirius. Also, please sign your comments with four ~s. 98.117.158.220 02:40, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

The curse exists regardless of whether or not it was responsible for his death. We don't know if it was the veil or the curse that kills Black, but the way the scene is written implies that he was fatally wounded before he fell through. As the effects of the curse are identicle to the one that Molly uses, I say we keep them the same for the time being, so, I'm reverting your changes. –K.A.J^{•T•C•E•} 11:10, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

How is it similar to Molly's curse? Laughter and smiling are two very different things. 98.117.158.220 02:08, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

Forgivable?

I suppose this may be more of a general question than ought be posed here, but does anyone have any idea what it is about this curse that makes it -not- one of the three unforgivable curses? If it's lethal, I don't see why it's any more forgivable than Avada Kedavra-- at least with Avada Kedavra, the death is instant and doesn't give the victim a chance to be shocked about their impending doom... I guess I'm also just wondering, generally, about the classification of curses like this one. --Emmy (★) 00:06, November 1, 2010 (UTC)

I can only speculate, but I would guess that the curse isn't necessarily lethal. it probably just disrupts or impedes whatever part of the body it comes into contact with, and as Sirius and Bellatrix were both struck in the heart, they died. That's just my theory though. As for classification, I'm not sure what you mean. Could you elaborate? Jayden Matthews 11:57, November 1, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, that more or less makes sense, I though it might be something like that too. Which is why I'm wondering why this called unidentified "lethal" curse; if it can be used non-lethally, than the name seems inaccurate. If it can't, however, then that really still begs the question of why it's not unforgivable. Two different issues, haha, I know, but still, I don't think we should assume this curse is an assuredly lethal one. --Emmy (★) 12:26, November 1, 2010 (UTC)

Well, like I said, that's just my guess. We only know of two cases where the curse was used, and both times it produced lethal results. As to why it's not "unforgivable" - who knows. It's only ever been used non-verbally before, so maybe it was developed without the knowledge or consent of the Ministry, like Snape's Sectumpempra. Jayden Matthews 12:54, November 1, 2010 (UTC)

Molly

When did Molly use it? I never remember that. I thought she used a killing curse. 75.27.36.231 23:41, December 6, 2010 (UTC)

• I thought so too but apparently it was this. Belabitch did take a few moments to die when the Killing Curse kills you instantly and it happened in the same manner as Sirius.--WarGrowlmon18 23:50, December 6, 2010 (UTC)

The reason it is not believed it was the killing curse she used against Bellatrix is because it says "for the tiniest space of time she knew what had happened.", and with the killing curse the victim is killed instantly with no idea what happened. --BachLynn^(Accio!) 23:51, December 6, 2010 (UTC)

Well, how do we know it was this curse, not some other lethal curse? There have to be other curses that kill you, like the curse Antonin used on Hermione. Then there are probably other curses that kill you. 75.27.36.231 00:04, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

Sirius was hit with a killing curse, and survived for a while, although Bella was hit in the chest, and Sirius was hit in the arm, possibly he survived because he was just hit in the arm. 75.27.36.231 15:23, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

Sirius was not hit with the Killing Curse. The curse that hit Sirius had a red/orange color if I remember correctly. I doubt Milly used Dolohov's curse, as that seems to be specific to Dolohov, I doubt anyone else knew how to do it. --JKoch^{(Owl Me!)} 15:37, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

Sirius wasn't hit in the arm, he was hit in the chest, but he was hit with Avada Kedavra, and there is nothing to suggest otherwiswe. Just because his eyes widened in shock it doesn't mean he did not die imediately. If you are shot in the head your eyes will no doubt display shock or pain, but you will still drop dead instantly. In Bellatrix's case the key phrases are her eyes seemed to bulge and for the tiniest space of time. If something seems a certain way then, while it may appear that way, it isn't necessarily the case. And, as has already been pointed out, if she saw the curse comming, then she would have known what had happened. J.K. Rowling does not name the curse that kills Sirius, or describe it. Thefore, the films, as second tier canon may be used to fill the gap. So, according to this wiki's canon policy Sirius was hit with Avada Kedavra. We will have to wait until the final film next year to discover the cause of Bellatrix's death, but no doubt it will be the same as her cousin's and not this imaginary curse. 86.161.254.108 18:14, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

In the movie they used the Killing Curse just because it was easier, there he was dead as he fell into the Veil not because he fell into the Veil. Falling through the Veil alone kills you. Given Harry's reaction in the book to try to save him it wasn't the Killing Curse as Harry would've known for a fact it was too late. It took Remus for him to realize that.--WarGrowlmon18 18:43, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that the policy of this wiki is that Sirius was not killed by the Killing Curse. The book basically leaves it open that Sirius was pushed through the Veil by whatever curse Bellatrix hit him with. We honestly have no idea if Molly and Bellatrix both killed with this same unknown curse, but both reacted or appeared to react prior to death. --JKoch^{(Owl Me!)} 18:18, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

The canon policy specifically states that as long as information from the films is not contradicted by the books then it is canon. If you read my above comment carefully, you will see why the book does not rule out Avada Kedavra as Sirius's killer. Futhermore, the image in this article is of Stupefy. I know, as I've played the game. I tell you, this curse does not exist. 86.161.254.108 18:31, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

Harry was grieving for Sirius. He would have beleived anything was possible in order for him to still be alive. Furthermore in the book, Bellatrix casts her curse non-verbally, meaning that Harry would not know what curse she used. 86.161.254.108 18:51, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

"Only one pair was still battling, apparently unaware of the new arrival. Harry saw Sirius duck Bellatrix's jet of red light: he was laughing at her. 'Come on, you can do better than that!' he yelled, his voice echoing around the cavernous room. The second jet of light hit him squarely on the chest. The laughter had not quite died from his face, but his eyes widened in shock. Harry released Neville, though he was unaware of doing so. He was jumping down the steps again, pulling out his wand, as Dumbledore, too, turned towards the dais. It seemed to take Sirius an age to fall: his body curved in a graceful arc as he sank backwards through the ragged veil hanging from the arch. Harry saw the look of mingled fear and surprise on his godfather's wasted, once-handsome face as he fell through the ancient doorway and disappeared behind the veil, which fluttered for a moment as though in a high wind, then fell back into place. Harry heard Bellatrix Lestrange's triumphant scream, but knew it meant nothing - Sirius had only just fallen through the archway, he would reappear from the other side any second… But Sirius did not reappear." --BachLynn^(Accio!) 19:01, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

The spell, whatever it might have been, that ended Sirius life (and I don't use the word "killed" on purpose; he may have been pushed through the Veil alive) was described as a "second jet of [red] light" (I added the emphasis on the book transcription above). This does rule out the possibility of Avada Kedavra and makes the film an ineligible canon tier on this matter. --  Seth Cooper  owl post! 19:11, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

The first jet of light is red, the second is not decribed. 86.161.254.108 19:14, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

That may be (the second light not being described) BUT it says that his eyes "widened" after the curse hit him as he was falling backwards, if the killing curse had hit him his facial features wouldn't change after the curse hit, widened implies that he was still alive after the curse hit, therefore definitely not avada kedavra. --BachLynn^(Accio!) 19:17, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

I've already explained this, see my first comment. Muscle reflexes continue to opperate for a short period of time after death. 86.161.254.108 19:22, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

Ok, how about this then, you're interpreting JKR's words one way, others interpret it another way, unless JKR has said so there's no way to know if when she wrote "his eyes widened with shock" was an involuntary muscle twitch or that he was still alive and his eyes widened in shock. Personally based on JKR's writing style I have a hard time believing she would take the time to write about involuntary muscle spasms as they don't add anything to the story, but who knows, either way, does not prove it was avada kedavra. --BachLynn^(Accio!) 19:28, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

Oh, but if the second jet of light wasn't red, Rowling wouldn't have written the second jet of light; she'd have written someting along the lines of another jet of light. By writing "the second", Rowling strongly implied the spell that killed him was the same as the one she had just cast (or, at least, that's what I interpret from that passage). --  Seth Cooper  owl post! 19:34, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

But that's my point, it doesn't prove it one way or another. That's what the canon policy is for, which, sadly some people seem happy to ignore when it doesn't support their own views. Furthermore there is no case where Avada Kedavra is described as killing instantly. The spider that Crouch/Moody kills was described as rolling on to it's back instantaneously not dying instantaneously. The force of the curse could have knocked it onto it's back. Another explanation could be that a spider, as a relatively simple organism would die quicker than a human being. Also, Seth, if you cast two jets of light, a red one and a green one, the green one is still a second jet of light. 109.155.62.69 19:43, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

But also as significant as the killing curse is to Harry and his past, I have a really hard time believing JKR wouldn't have specifically stated that as the curse if it had been the curse. --BachLynn^(Accio!) 19:49, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

Also, in book 4 when Frank Bryce is killed with the killing curse it says "He was dead before he hit the floor". As it only takes a couple of seconds to fall that sounds pretty instantaneous to me. --BachLynn^(Accio!) 19:52, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

I doubt it. It was the caster, not the curse that was significant to Harry. Something else which reinforces my point is Sirius describing his own death as quicker and easier than falling asleep. Doesn't sound like being hit with a curse that "triggered cardiac arrest". Where does that information even come from? A couple of seconds is all it takes for your eyes to "widen in shock". 109.155.62.69 19:56, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

You're probably right about the "second" thingy. It's just it's the way I always had interpreted it. Oh, by the way, despite what it is written in this article I actually see little evidence to suggest that this spell triggers cardiac arrest. As for his death being quicker and easier than falling asleep we don't know whether he's talking about the hypothetical Avada Kedavra/curse or his "death by drapery". --  Seth Cooper  owl post! 20:17, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

That's fair enough, at least we're making progress. OK let's sumarise the points we have covered so far.

1. Did Sirius die instantly? - Probably. His eyes widening in shock could have been the physical force of the spell, or could have occured post-mortem.
2. Was the curse red or green - We don't know. Bellatrix fired at least one red spell at him, but the color of the fatal one is not given.
3. Does Avada Kedavra always kill instantly - There is no concreate piece of text that says so, as I've explained above.

Does anyone else have anything to add? 86.164.172.55 20:29, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

I think the curse kills fast given Belabitch's death, also he got pushed through the Veil, that may have been an instant death for anyone going through it.--WarGrowlmon18 21:07, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

Also, Seth, as Harry is directly asking if it was physically painfull it's pretty obvious that Sirius was describing the actuall sensation of dying. If there is a possibillity that the veil caused his death, then the entire premise of this curse being "lethal" is false. 86.164.172.55 20:31, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

Proposal

I propose that we change this to "Unidentified lethal curses" (note the plural), which leaves room in case Molly and Bellatrix used different unidentified curses on their victims. We also incorporate into the article sections on Antonin Dolohov's curse and any other curse we think may result in someone's death other than the Killing Curse. Tell me what you think? --JKoch^{(Owl Me!)} 22:24, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

In general I like the idea, this way we can cut back having half a dozen articles on unidentified curses that can cause death. As far as Sirius's death goes, part of the problem is the vagueness with which JKR writes, as she doesn't come out and specifically say what killed him, it leaves it open for interpretation. No matter what we do there are still going to be people convinced it was the veil that killed him and had nothing to do with the curse, and some that are convinced it was Avada Kedavra. Short of asking JKR herself, I'm not sure what to do canon wise with this situation. --BachLynn^(Accio!) 22:49, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

Dolohov's curse is distinct, seperate, and unique so merging it would be innapropriate. I've already demonsrated beyond all reasonable doubt that Avada Kedavra was used to kill Sirius. I'm not saying this was Rowling's intentions (there are lots of things that we consider canon that she probably never dreamed of. Alas, the Millenium Bridge) However the way she has written the scene is too vague for us to discern which curse killed him. Therfore we look to the next tier of canon - the film. If you'd just read the canon policy yourself, and attempt to comprehend it you would know this. 86.145.92.21 10:11, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

I didn't expect to merge it, but to mention it with the others, as there is distinct information on Dolohov's curse, of course it will keep its own page, but it is an "unidentified lethal curse." Also, if she had intended to kill, Sirius with the Killing Curse, she would have. Also, from his lessons with Moody/Crouch Harry would have know not to expect to see Sirius again. There would have been the "sound of rushing death." If JKR had intended to kill Sirius with the Killing Curse, there would be no debate over it, there would be clear signs (ie actually having Bellatrix shout "Avada Kedavra" in the text). --JKoch^{(Owl Me!)} 13:38, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

I've already explained this several times. There are tons of things this wiki considers canon that Rowling probably doesn't. However, by being vague and not stating which curse was used to kill Sirius she opens up the door to the films, which fill the gaps. There is nothing, I repeat nothing within the text that rules out Avada Kedavra as the fatal curse. Therfore, in the eyes of this wiki, it is canon. This is the most basic and fundemental principal of the wiki, and I'm shocked that you, as an administrator of this site do not understand it, despite the fact that I've explained it to you. Also, Bellatrix is known to use Avada Kedavra non-verbally, as she did with the fox. Therefore Harry may not have known which curse she used. Ive explained that before already. Anything else you'd like me to repeat. 86.145.92.21 14:40, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

This article still cannot be deleted, because we still do not know how Molly killed Bellatrix. I find it highly unlikely that she would have used the Killing Curse. Therefore there is still some unknown curse which killed Bellatrix, ergo this article needs to remain. --JKoch^{(Owl Me!)} 18:27, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

"Therefore Harry may not have known which curse she used." After having seen it demonstrated in front of him by "Moody" in the previous year, along with detailed descriptions of its effects? After having watched Cedric Diggory murdered by it, an event he was replaying in his nightmares all summer long?

Consider these, direct from the book, which pretty well establish that whatever killed Sirius was NOT Avada Kedavra:

• "His eyes widened in shock" (after being hit).
• "Sirius had only just fallen through the archway, he would reappear from the other side any second" (again, Harry knows what the Killing Curse does at this point.)
• "(Harry) Get him, save him, he's only just gone through! (Lupin) It's too late, Harry -" (Saying "it's too late" would imply that there would have been a chance to save him, but it's already stated there is no counterspell to or recovery from the Killing Curse. It wouldn't be "it's too late", it's be "it's no use".)
• "But some part of him realized, even as he fought to break free from Lupin, that Sirius had never kept him waiting before... Sirius had risked everything, always to see Harry, to help him... If Sirius was not reappearing out of that archway when Harry was yelling for him as if his life depended on it, th eonly possible explanation was that he could not come back... That he really was..." (THIS is what finally forces Harry to accept that Sirius is dead, not anything to do with the effects or finality of the Killing Curse, which again he has been fully aware of since GoF, but the simple fact that, for some reason Harry can't explain, Sirius hasn't come back.)

70.249.145.15 18:31, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

I've already explained the above points very clearly, if you'd bothered to read my full post. I'll repeat myself ... again.

1. There is no concreate piece of text which says Avada Kedavra kills instantly (please read my above comments before responding).
2. Bellatrix casts the curse non-verbally. Therefore Harry could not have known which spell she used, and there are other spells which create green light. Remember that Sirius fell through the veil, he did not drop dead on the floor. As, such, Harry would not have known the effects of the curse had on Sirius.
3. Harry was grieving for crying outloud, he knew Sirius was dead, he just did not want to admit it to himself. Remeber in Philosopher's Stone after seeing his parents in the mirror he is convinced that some form of magic could bring them back. It took Dumbledore to explain that this was not the case.

I'm finding it extremly tedious having to repeat myself every time someone posts on this discussion. So, again, please read the whole conversation before responding with something along the lines of Well, his eyes bulged, so it could'nt have been Avada Kedavra. And Hcoknhoj, there is no more evedince to suggest Bellatrix was killed with a different curse than there is Sirius. 86.145.92.21 21:00, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

That's your opinion. As there are multiple spells which produce green light, and Bellatrix did not scream the incantation, how is Harry supposed to know what she used? Actually, no, don't answear that. You'll only repeat yourself, and then I'll have to repeat myself, and so on. God, this is tiresome. The bottom line is - this article is overbearing fanon, and needs to be deleted. 86.145.92.21 21:17, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

"There is no concreate piece of text which says Avada Kedavra kills instantly " - "Instantaneously the spider rolled over onto it's back, unmarked, but unmistakanly dead" (GOF p.216)

"Therefore Harry could not have known which spell she used" - That's like saying someone wouldn't recognize the sound of a gunshot, after having attended classes on firearms the year before AND watching someone getting blown away right in front of them. And I repeat, he learned about this curse in his 4th year, he watched Cedric murdered before his eyes, and in his 3rd year the effect that Dementors had on him was forcing to relive his mother's death by this curse. Any argument that he can't recognize that green flash, rushing sound, and drop-dead effect by now is fallacious.

"he knew Sirius was dead, he just did not want to admit it to himself." - And yet, as I already mentioned, the realization and acceptance moments later that he was dead had nothing to do with the stated effects or attributes of the Killing Curse. Reread the paragraph from my previous post.

70.249.145.15 21:08, December 8, 2010 (UTC)