Merge
Please do not remove my merge template. The existence of this page is sheer speculation and belongs elsewhere. 98.117.158.220 05:12, January 5, 2010 (UTC)
It is a canocial article backed up by several sources. Do not add the merge template again. Jayden Matthews 11:47, January 5, 2010 (UTC)
One source that just says "Harry Potter and the Order of the Pheonix" is not "several sources". I will be disscussing this with an admin. 98.117.158.220 06:18, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
Three sources actually. can't you count? Jayden Matthews 09:43, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
Can't you? Look at the "Notes and Refrences" section. 98.117.158.220 00:39, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
While this curse did not kill Sirius Black, an unidentified lethal curse did kill Bellatrix Lestrange. I say this article stays, but without the reference to Sirius Black. He died, because he fell through the Veil. --Hcoknhoj 00:59, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
- That also works. I'll remove refrences to Sirius Black. 98.117.158.220 02:16, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
I really don't beleave that it's another curse, it's the same stupefy but when bellatrix and molly did it they felt to much angry and made the spell more powerfull.
- There is now a seperate article for the curst that killed sirius. Also, please sign your comments with four ~s. 98.117.158.220 02:40, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
- The curse exists regardless of whether or not it was responsible for his death. We don't know if it was the veil or the curse that kills Black, but the way the scene is written implies that he was fatally wounded before he fell through. As the effects of the curse are identicle to the one that Molly uses, I say we keep them the same for the time being, so, I'm reverting your changes. –K.A.J•T•C•E• 11:10, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
- How is it similar to Molly's curse? Laughter and smiling are two very different things. 98.117.158.220 02:08, January 8, 2010 (UTC)
- The curse exists regardless of whether or not it was responsible for his death. We don't know if it was the veil or the curse that kills Black, but the way the scene is written implies that he was fatally wounded before he fell through. As the effects of the curse are identicle to the one that Molly uses, I say we keep them the same for the time being, so, I'm reverting your changes. –K.A.J•T•C•E• 11:10, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
Unidentified Knockback curse
- The following discussion is an archived discussion. Please do not modify it.
- Moved from "Talk:Unidentified Knockback curse" -- Seth Cooper owl post! 19:34, January 9, 2010 (UTC)
Ok thats wrong i'll repeat it againg. It's Not a new spell or curse, it's the same spell (Stupefy) But when the people that make it,they where so angry that make the spell more puwerfull. bellatrix hate him so much in that moment, because sirius was laughing about her. He recived the bolt and it was so powerfull that he was thrown out and go through the veil. And when molly used, she was very angry because bellatrix killed her son and pretended to kill ginny. In this case bellatrix recived the bolt in his chest that produced a heart attack.
- What? No! 98.117.158.220 03:02, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
- We don't have enough information to confirm that the curse that Bellatrix used is a stunning spell. I am going to put a Candidate for deletion tag on this, because we already have the page Unidentified lethal curse that covers this information. QuidditchLover
(My talk)(contribs) 05:26, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
- Not the same curse. However, you could merge them, but make sure this is identified on the page as a different curse. 98.117.158.220 05:37, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
- And why isn't it the same one? There are countless similarities between the two curses. -- Seth Cooper owl post! 12:21, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
- We don't have enough information to confirm that the curse that Bellatrix used is a stunning spell. I am going to put a Candidate for deletion tag on this, because we already have the page Unidentified lethal curse that covers this information. QuidditchLover
No. The Antonin Dolohov's curse it's totally different. Sirius recived a red light, but hermione recived a purple light with a slashing movement and the effect's are different. Yes we don't have enough information to confirm that is the stunning spell, But how can you say that is another curse?. As we know he recived a red light, how many spells exist that produce a red light? Just sutpefy and expelliarmus, but expelliarmus disarm the opponent's wand, and don't push him away, not enough to go through the veil. And exist two articles about the same "new spell" just with different words.
I wasn't saying Dolohov's curse is the same. I was just using it as an example for why this curse should have only one article. And the curse is orange, not red. –K.A.J•T•C•E• 17:38, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
Just because the Disarming and Stupefy spells are the only red light spells we know of, it doesn´t mean there aren´t more.--Rodolphus 17:40, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
No, The curse is red not orange. Read the book if you don't believe me. Agreed, you should delete this article. Of course there are more spells, but they are only the spells that carry out with the description.
The color of the curse is not described in the book. It is shown in the video game to be orange. –K.A.J•T•C•E• 19:48, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
Give me a good reason why its the same curse that Bella used. 98.117.158.220 00:44, January 8, 2010 (UTC)
- They had exactly the same effects:
- "The laughter had not quite died from his face, but his eyes widened in shock."
- — Sirius's death[src]
- "Molly's curse soared beneath Bellatrix's outsretched arm and hit her squarely in the chest, directly over her heart. Bellatrix's gloating smile froze, her eyes seemed to bulge [...] "
- — Bellatrix's death[src]
- Besides, this article is all wrong, as Sirius wasn't pushed into his death in the Veil: he was already dead and merely fell into it (OP - chapter 35). If no one gives contrary evidence, this article is to be deleted. -- Seth Cooper owl post! 01:24, January 8, 2010 (UTC)
- See, sirius was still laughing when he died. Belatrix only smiled. An YOU have to give contarary evidence for this article to be deleted. 98.117.158.220 02:06, January 8, 2010 (UTC)
- The smiling/laughing part is irrelevant; the relevant part is that upon being hit with the curse both had became very shocked (note the references to their eyes widening) and both bodies toppled a few seconds later. -- Seth Cooper owl post! 02:23, January 8, 2010 (UTC)
- The bulging part is irrelevent. You would be shocked too if you suddenly were knocked back. And the laughing part is very relevent. You can't laugh if you're heart stops. 98.117.158.220 03:52, January 8, 2010 (UTC)
- The laughing part is irrelevant because that's what they were doing before being hit with the curse, they didn't laugh/smile as a consequence of the curse. Also, Rowling never once says he was knocked back (in fact she uses "fell" and "toppled"). Also Sirius didn't continue laughing after being hit; his mocking froze, just like Bellatrix smile did before both collapsed a few seconds later. -- Seth Cooper owl post! 13:26, January 8, 2010 (UTC)
- It did not freeze. Other wise it would say something like "Sirius stopped laughing" instead of what is there. Do not delete the article until this is settled. 98.117.158.220 00:57, January 9, 2010 (UTC)
- "The laughter had not quite died from his face." (added emphasis). With this Rowling is talking about Sirius's facial expression, not of his previous loud laughter. -- Seth Cooper owl post! 01:05, January 9, 2010 (UTC)
- No, it means that he's still laughing. We're keeping this article until further evidence. 98.117.158.220 17:59, January 9, 2010 (UTC)
You have failed to provide any evidence to support your claim whatsoever, whereas I have done so. Should I delete the article then? -- Seth Cooper owl post! 18:33, January 9, 2010 (UTC)´
Yes, you should.--Rodolphus 18:37, January 9, 2010 (UTC)
Agreed. This article is complete farceity. –K.A.J•T•C•E• 18:42, January 9, 2010 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Forgivable?
I suppose this may be more of a general question than ought be posed here, but does anyone have any idea what it is about this curse that makes it -not- one of the three unforgivable curses? If it's lethal, I don't see why it's any more forgivable than Avada Kedavra-- at least with Avada Kedavra, the death is instant and doesn't give the victim a chance to be shocked about their impending doom... I guess I'm also just wondering, generally, about the classification of curses like this one. --Emmy (★) 00:06, November 1, 2010 (UTC)
- I can only speculate, but I would guess that the curse isn't necessarily lethal. it probably just disrupts or impedes whatever part of the body it comes into contact with, and as Sirius and Bellatrix were both struck in the heart, they died. That's just my theory though. As for classification, I'm not sure what you mean. Could you elaborate? Jayden Matthews 11:57, November 1, 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, that more or less makes sense, I though it might be something like that too. Which is why I'm wondering why this called unidentified "lethal" curse; if it can be used non-lethally, than the name seems inaccurate. If it can't, however, then that really still begs the question of why it's not unforgivable. Two different issues, haha, I know, but still, I don't think we should assume this curse is an assuredly lethal one. --Emmy (★) 12:26, November 1, 2010 (UTC)
- Well, like I said, that's just my guess. We only know of two cases where the curse was used, and both times it produced lethal results. As to why it's not "unforgivable" - who knows. It's only ever been used non-verbally before, so maybe it was developed without the knowledge or consent of the Ministry, like Snape's Sectumpempra. Jayden Matthews 12:54, November 1, 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, that more or less makes sense, I though it might be something like that too. Which is why I'm wondering why this called unidentified "lethal" curse; if it can be used non-lethally, than the name seems inaccurate. If it can't, however, then that really still begs the question of why it's not unforgivable. Two different issues, haha, I know, but still, I don't think we should assume this curse is an assuredly lethal one. --Emmy (★) 12:26, November 1, 2010 (UTC)
Molly
When did Molly use it? I never remember that. I thought she used a killing curse. 75.27.36.231 23:41, December 6, 2010 (UTC)
- I thought so too but apparently it was this. Belabitch did take a few moments to die when the Killing Curse kills you instantly and it happened in the same manner as Sirius.--WarGrowlmon18 23:50, December 6, 2010 (UTC)
- The reason it is not believed it was the killing curse she used against Bellatrix is because it says "for the tiniest space of time she knew what had happened.", and with the killing curse the victim is killed instantly with no idea what happened. --BachLynn
(Accio!) 23:51, December 6, 2010 (UTC) - Well, how do we know it was this curse, not some other lethal curse? There have to be other curses that kill you, like the curse Antonin used on Hermione. Then there are probably other curses that kill you. 75.27.36.231 00:04, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
- Sirius was hit with a killing curse, and survived for a while, although Bella was hit in the chest, and Sirius was hit in the arm, possibly he survived because he was just hit in the arm. 75.27.36.231 15:23, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
- Sirius was not hit with the Killing Curse. The curse that hit Sirius had a red/orange color if I remember correctly. I doubt Milly used Dolohov's curse, as that seems to be specific to Dolohov, I doubt anyone else knew how to do it. --JKoch
(Owl Me!) 15:37, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
- Sirius wasn't hit in the arm, he was hit in the chest, but he was hit with Avada Kedavra, and there is nothing to suggest otherwiswe. Just because his eyes widened in shock it doesn't mean he did not die imediately. If you are shot in the head your eyes will no doubt display shock or pain, but you will still drop dead instantly. In Bellatrix's case the key phrases are her eyes seemed to bulge and for the tiniest space of time. If something seems a certain way then, while it may appear that way, it isn't necessarily the case. And, as has already been pointed out, if she saw the curse comming, then she would have known what had happened. J.K. Rowling does not name the curse that kills Sirius, or describe it. Thefore, the films, as second tier canon may be used to fill the gap. So, according to this wiki's canon policy Sirius was hit with Avada Kedavra. We will have to wait until the final film next year to discover the cause of Bellatrix's death, but no doubt it will be the same as her cousin's and not this imaginary curse. 86.161.254.108 18:14, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
- In the movie they used the Killing Curse just because it was easier, there he was dead as he fell into the Veil not because he fell into the Veil. Falling through the Veil alone kills you. Given Harry's reaction in the book to try to save him it wasn't the Killing Curse as Harry would've known for a fact it was too late. It took Remus for him to realize that.--WarGrowlmon18 18:43, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
- Sirius wasn't hit in the arm, he was hit in the chest, but he was hit with Avada Kedavra, and there is nothing to suggest otherwiswe. Just because his eyes widened in shock it doesn't mean he did not die imediately. If you are shot in the head your eyes will no doubt display shock or pain, but you will still drop dead instantly. In Bellatrix's case the key phrases are her eyes seemed to bulge and for the tiniest space of time. If something seems a certain way then, while it may appear that way, it isn't necessarily the case. And, as has already been pointed out, if she saw the curse comming, then she would have known what had happened. J.K. Rowling does not name the curse that kills Sirius, or describe it. Thefore, the films, as second tier canon may be used to fill the gap. So, according to this wiki's canon policy Sirius was hit with Avada Kedavra. We will have to wait until the final film next year to discover the cause of Bellatrix's death, but no doubt it will be the same as her cousin's and not this imaginary curse. 86.161.254.108 18:14, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
- Sirius was not hit with the Killing Curse. The curse that hit Sirius had a red/orange color if I remember correctly. I doubt Milly used Dolohov's curse, as that seems to be specific to Dolohov, I doubt anyone else knew how to do it. --JKoch
- The reason it is not believed it was the killing curse she used against Bellatrix is because it says "for the tiniest space of time she knew what had happened.", and with the killing curse the victim is killed instantly with no idea what happened. --BachLynn
I'd like to point out that the policy of this wiki is that Sirius was not killed by the Killing Curse. The book basically leaves it open that Sirius was pushed through the Veil by whatever curse Bellatrix hit him with. We honestly have no idea if Molly and Bellatrix both killed with this same unknown curse, but both reacted or appeared to react prior to death. --JKoch
(Owl Me!) 18:18, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
- The canon policy specifically states that as long as information from the films is not contradicted by the books then it is canon. If you read my above comment carefully, you will see why the book does not rule out Avada Kedavra as Sirius's killer. Futhermore, the image in this article is of Stupefy. I know, as I've played the game. I tell you, this curse does not exist. 86.161.254.108 18:31, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
- Harry was grieving for Sirius. He would have beleived anything was possible in order for him to still be alive. Furthermore in the book, Bellatrix casts her curse non-verbally, meaning that Harry would not know what curse she used. 86.161.254.108 18:51, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
- The canon policy specifically states that as long as information from the films is not contradicted by the books then it is canon. If you read my above comment carefully, you will see why the book does not rule out Avada Kedavra as Sirius's killer. Futhermore, the image in this article is of Stupefy. I know, as I've played the game. I tell you, this curse does not exist. 86.161.254.108 18:31, December 7, 2010 (UTC)