Please do not remove my merge template. The existence of this page is sheer speculation and belongs elsewhere. 220.127.116.11 05:12, January 5, 2010 (UTC)
It is a canocial article backed up by several sources. Do not add the merge template again. Jayden Matthews 11:47, January 5, 2010 (UTC)
One source that just says "Harry Potter and the Order of the Pheonix" is not "several sources". I will be disscussing this with an admin. 18.104.22.168 06:18, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
Three sources actually. can't you count? Jayden Matthews 09:43, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
Can't you? Look at the "Notes and Refrences" section. 22.214.171.124 00:39, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
While this curse did not kill Sirius Black, an unidentified lethal curse did kill Bellatrix Lestrange. I say this article stays, but without the reference to Sirius Black. He died, because he fell through the Veil. --Hcoknhoj 00:59, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
That also works. I'll remove refrences to Sirius Black. 126.96.36.199 02:16, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
I really don't beleave that it's another curse, it's the same stupefy but when bellatrix and molly did it they felt to much angry and made the spell more powerfull.
There is now a seperate article for the curst that killed sirius. Also, please sign your comments with four ~s. 188.8.131.52 02:40, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
The curse exists regardless of whether or not it was responsible for his death. We don't know if it was the veil or the curse that kills Black, but the way the scene is written implies that he was fatally wounded before he fell through. As the effects of the curse are identicle to the one that Molly uses, I say we keep them the same for the time being, so, I'm reverting your changes. –K.A.J•T•C•E• 11:10, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
How is it similar to Molly's curse? Laughter and smiling are two very different things. 184.108.40.206 02:08, January 8, 2010 (UTC)
Unidentified Knockback curse
Ok thats wrong i'll repeat it againg. It's Not a new spell or curse, it's the same spell (Stupefy) But when the people that make it,they where so angry that make the spell more puwerfull. bellatrix hate him so much in that moment, because sirius was laughing about her. He recived the bolt and it was so powerfull that he was thrown out and go through the veil. And when molly used, she was very angry because bellatrix killed her son and pretended to kill ginny. In this case bellatrix recived the bolt in his chest that produced a heart attack.
We don't have enough information to confirm that the curse that Bellatrix used is a stunning spell. I am going to put a Candidate for deletion tag on this, because we already have the page Unidentified lethal curse that covers this information. QuidditchLover(My talk)(contribs) 05:26, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
Not the same curse. However, you could merge them, but make sure this is identified on the page as a different curse. 220.127.116.11 05:37, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
And why isn't it the same one? There are countless similarities between the two curses. -- Seth Cooperowl post! 12:21, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
Agreed. By this logic we should split Antonin Dolohov's curse into separate articles for each time he uses it, just in case they are separate spells that cause the exact same effect. –K.A.J•T•C•E• 12:31, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
No. The Antonin Dolohov's curse it's totally different. Sirius recived a red light, but hermione recived a purple light with a slashing movement and the effect's are different. Yes we don't have enough information to confirm that is the stunning spell, But how can you say that is another curse?. As we know he recived a red light, how many spells exist that produce a red light? Just sutpefy and expelliarmus, but expelliarmus disarm the opponent's wand, and don't push him away, not enough to go through the veil. And exist two articles about the same "new spell" just with different words.
I wasn't saying Dolohov's curse is the same. I was just using it as an example for why this curse should have only one article. And the curse is orange, not red. –K.A.J•T•C•E• 17:38, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
Just because the Disarming and Stupefy spells are the only red light spells we know of, it doesn´t mean there aren´t more.--Rodolphus 17:40, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
No, The curse is red not orange. Read the book if you don't believe me. Agreed, you should delete this article. Of course there are more spells, but they are only the spells that carry out with the description.
The color of the curse is not described in the book. It is shown in the video game to be orange. –K.A.J•T•C•E• 19:48, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
Give me a good reason why its the same curse that Bella used. 18.104.22.168 00:44, January 8, 2010 (UTC)
They had exactly the same effects:
"The laughter had not quite died from his face, but his eyes widened in shock."
Besides, this article is all wrong, as Sirius wasn't pushed into his death in the Veil: he was already dead and merely fell into it (OP - chapter 35). If no one gives contrary evidence, this article is to be deleted. -- Seth Cooperowl post! 01:24, January 8, 2010 (UTC)
See, sirius was still laughing when he died. Belatrix only smiled. An YOU have to give contarary evidence for this article to be deleted. 22.214.171.124 02:06, January 8, 2010 (UTC)
The smiling/laughing part is irrelevant; the relevant part is that upon being hit with the curse both had became very shocked (note the references to their eyes widening) and both bodies toppled a few seconds later. -- Seth Cooperowl post! 02:23, January 8, 2010 (UTC)
The bulging part is irrelevent. You would be shocked too if you suddenly were knocked back. And the laughing part is very relevent. You can't laugh if you're heart stops. 126.96.36.199 03:52, January 8, 2010 (UTC)
The laughing part is irrelevant because that's what they were doing before being hit with the curse, they didn't laugh/smile as a consequence of the curse. Also, Rowling never once says he was knocked back (in fact she uses "fell" and "toppled"). Also Sirius didn't continue laughing after being hit; his mocking froze, just like Bellatrix smile did before both collapsed a few seconds later. -- Seth Cooperowl post! 13:26, January 8, 2010 (UTC)
It did not freeze. Other wise it would say something like "Sirius stopped laughing" instead of what is there. Do not delete the article until this is settled. 188.8.131.52 00:57, January 9, 2010 (UTC)
"The laughter had not quite died from his face." (added emphasis). With this Rowling is talking about Sirius's facial expression, not of his previous loud laughter. -- Seth Cooperowl post! 01:05, January 9, 2010 (UTC)
No, it means that he's still laughing. We're keeping this article until further evidence. 184.108.40.206 17:59, January 9, 2010 (UTC)
Not it does'nt, and no we're not. You're in no position to make demands, anyway. –K.A.J•T•C•E• 18:02, January 9, 2010 (UTC)
You have failed to provide any evidence to support your claim whatsoever, whereas I have done so. Should I delete the article then? -- Seth Cooperowl post! 18:33, January 9, 2010 (UTC)´
Yes, you should.--Rodolphus 18:37, January 9, 2010 (UTC)
Agreed. This article is complete farceity. –K.A.J•T•C•E• 18:42, January 9, 2010 (UTC)
I suppose this may be more of a general question than ought be posed here, but does anyone have any idea what it is about this curse that makes it -not- one of the three unforgivable curses? If it's lethal, I don't see why it's any more forgivable than Avada Kedavra-- at least with Avada Kedavra, the death is instant and doesn't give the victim a chance to be shocked about their impending doom... I guess I'm also just wondering, generally, about the classification of curses like this one. --Emmy (★) 00:06, November 1, 2010 (UTC)
I can only speculate, but I would guess that the curse isn't necessarily lethal. it probably just disrupts or impedes whatever part of the body it comes into contact with, and as Sirius and Bellatrix were both struck in the heart, they died. That's just my theory though. As for classification, I'm not sure what you mean. Could you elaborate? Jayden Matthews 11:57, November 1, 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, that more or less makes sense, I though it might be something like that too. Which is why I'm wondering why this called unidentified "lethal" curse; if it can be used non-lethally, than the name seems inaccurate. If it can't, however, then that really still begs the question of why it's not unforgivable. Two different issues, haha, I know, but still, I don't think we should assume this curse is an assuredly lethal one. --Emmy (★) 12:26, November 1, 2010 (UTC)
Well, like I said, that's just my guess. We only know of two cases where the curse was used, and both times it produced lethal results. As to why it's not "unforgivable" - who knows. It's only ever been used non-verbally before, so maybe it was developed without the knowledge or consent of the Ministry, like Snape's Sectumpempra. Jayden Matthews 12:54, November 1, 2010 (UTC)
When did Molly use it? I never remember that. I thought she used a killing curse. 220.127.116.11 23:41, December 6, 2010 (UTC)
I thought so too but apparently it was this. Belabitch did take a few moments to die when the Killing Curse kills you instantly and it happened in the same manner as Sirius.--WarGrowlmon18 23:50, December 6, 2010 (UTC)
The reason it is not believed it was the killing curse she used against Bellatrix is because it says "for the tiniest space of time she knew what had happened.", and with the killing curse the victim is killed instantly with no idea what happened. --BachLynn(Accio!) 23:51, December 6, 2010 (UTC)
Well, how do we know it was this curse, not some other lethal curse? There have to be other curses that kill you, like the curse Antonin used on Hermione. Then there are probably other curses that kill you. 18.104.22.168 00:04, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
Sirius was hit with a killing curse, and survived for a while, although Bella was hit in the chest, and Sirius was hit in the arm, possibly he survived because he was just hit in the arm. 22.214.171.124 15:23, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
Sirius was not hit with the Killing Curse. The curse that hit Sirius had a red/orange color if I remember correctly. I doubt Milly used Dolohov's curse, as that seems to be specific to Dolohov, I doubt anyone else knew how to do it. --JKoch(Owl Me!) 15:37, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
Sirius wasn't hit in the arm, he was hit in the chest, but he was hit with Avada Kedavra, and there is nothing to suggest otherwiswe. Just because his eyes widened in shock it doesn't mean he did not die imediately. If you are shot in the head your eyes will no doubt display shock or pain, but you will still drop dead instantly. In Bellatrix's case the key phrases are her eyes seemed to bulge and for the tiniest space of time. If something seems a certain way then, while it may appear that way, it isn't necessarily the case. And, as has already been pointed out, if she saw the curse comming, then she would have known what had happened. J.K. Rowling does not name the curse that kills Sirius, or describe it. Thefore, the films, as second tier canon may be used to fill the gap. So, according to this wiki's canon policy Sirius was hit with Avada Kedavra. We will have to wait until the final film next year to discover the cause of Bellatrix's death, but no doubt it will be the same as her cousin's and not this imaginary curse. 126.96.36.199 18:14, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
In the movie they used the Killing Curse just because it was easier, there he was dead as he fell into the Veil not because he fell into the Veil. Falling through the Veil alone kills you. Given Harry's reaction in the book to try to save him it wasn't the Killing Curse as Harry would've known for a fact it was too late. It took Remus for him to realize that.--WarGrowlmon18 18:43, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to point out that the policy of this wiki is that Sirius was not killed by the Killing Curse. The book basically leaves it open that Sirius was pushed through the Veil by whatever curse Bellatrix hit him with. We honestly have no idea if Molly and Bellatrix both killed with this same unknown curse, but both reacted or appeared to react prior to death. --JKoch(Owl Me!) 18:18, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
The canon policy specifically states that as long as information from the films is not contradicted by the books then it is canon. If you read my above comment carefully, you will see why the book does not rule out Avada Kedavra as Sirius's killer. Futhermore, the image in this article is of Stupefy. I know, as I've played the game. I tell you, this curse does not exist. 188.8.131.52 18:31, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
Harry was grieving for Sirius. He would have beleived anything was possible in order for him to still be alive. Furthermore in the book, Bellatrix casts her curse non-verbally, meaning that Harry would not know what curse she used. 184.108.40.206 18:51, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
"Only one pair was still battling, apparently unaware of the new arrival. Harry saw Sirius duck Bellatrix's jet of red light: he was laughing at her. 'Come on, you can do better than that!' he yelled, his voice echoing around the cavernous room. The second jet of light hit him squarely on the chest. The laughter had not quite died from his face, but his eyes widened in shock. Harry released Neville, though he was unaware of doing so. He was jumping down the steps again, pulling out his wand, as Dumbledore, too, turned towards the dais. It seemed to take Sirius an age to fall: his body curved in a graceful arc as he sank backwards through the ragged veil hanging from the arch. Harry saw the look of mingled fear and surprise on his godfather's wasted, once-handsome face as he fell through the ancient doorway and disappeared behind the veil, which fluttered for a moment as though in a high wind, then fell back into place. Harry heard Bellatrix Lestrange's triumphant scream, but knew it meant nothing - Sirius had only just fallen through the archway, he would reappear from the other side any second… But Sirius did not reappear." --BachLynn(Accio!) 19:01, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
The spell, whatever it might have been, that ended Sirius life (and I don't use the word "killed" on purpose; he may have been pushed through the Veil alive) was described as a "second jet of [red] light" (I added the emphasis on the book transcription above). This does rule out the possibility of Avada Kedavra and makes the film an ineligible canon tier on this matter. -- Seth Cooperowl post! 19:11, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
The first jet of light is red, the second is not decribed. 220.127.116.11 19:14, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
That may be (the second light not being described) BUT it says that his eyes "widened" after the curse hit him as he was falling backwards, if the killing curse had hit him his facial features wouldn't change after the curse hit, widened implies that he was still alive after the curse hit, therefore definitely not avada kedavra. --BachLynn(Accio!) 19:17, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
I've already explained this, see my first comment. Muscle reflexes continue to opperate for a short period of time after death. 18.104.22.168 19:22, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
Ok, how about this then, you're interpreting JKR's words one way, others interpret it another way, unless JKR has said so there's no way to know if when she wrote "his eyes widened with shock" was an involuntary muscle twitch or that he was still alive and his eyes widened in shock. Personally based on JKR's writing style I have a hard time believing she would take the time to write about involuntary muscle spasms as they don't add anything to the story, but who knows, either way, does not prove it was avada kedavra. --BachLynn(Accio!) 19:28, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
Oh, but if the second jet of light wasn't red, Rowling wouldn't have written the second jet of light; she'd have written someting along the lines of another jet of light. By writing "the second", Rowling strongly implied the spell that killed him was the same as the one she had just cast (or, at least, that's what I interpret from that passage). -- Seth Cooperowl post! 19:34, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
But that's my point, it doesn't prove it one way or another. That's what the canon policy is for, which, sadly some people seem happy to ignore when it doesn't support their own views. Furthermore there is no case where Avada Kedavra is described as killing instantly. The spider that Crouch/Moody kills was described as rolling on to it's back instantaneously not dying instantaneously. The force of the curse could have knocked it onto it's back. Another explanation could be that a spider, as a relatively simple organism would die quicker than a human being. Also, Seth, if you cast two jets of light, a red one and a green one, the green one is still a second jet of light. 22.214.171.124 19:43, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
But also as significant as the killing curse is to Harry and his past, I have a really hard time believing JKR wouldn't have specifically stated that as the curse if it had been the curse. --BachLynn(Accio!) 19:49, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
Also, in book 4 when Frank Bryce is killed with the killing curse it says "He was dead before he hit the floor". As it only takes a couple of seconds to fall that sounds pretty instantaneous to me. --BachLynn(Accio!) 19:52, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
I doubt it. It was the caster, not the curse that was significant to Harry. Something else which reinforces my point is Sirius describing his own death as quicker and easier than falling asleep. Doesn't sound like being hit with a curse that "triggered cardiac arrest". Where does that information even come from? A couple of seconds is all it takes for your eyes to "widen in shock". 126.96.36.199 19:56, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
You're probably right about the "second" thingy. It's just it's the way I always had interpreted it. Oh, by the way, despite what it is written in this article I actually see little evidence to suggest that this spell triggers cardiac arrest. As for his death being quicker and easier than falling asleep we don't know whether he's talking about the hypothetical Avada Kedavra/curse or his "death by drapery". -- Seth Cooperowl post! 20:17, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
That's fair enough, at least we're making progress. OK let's sumarise the points we have covered so far.
Did Sirius die instantly? - Probably. His eyes widening in shock could have been the physical force of the spell, or could have occured post-mortem.
Was the curse red or green - We don't know. Bellatrix fired at least one red spell at him, but the color of the fatal one is not given.
Does Avada Kedavra always kill instantly - There is no concreate piece of text that says so, as I've explained above.
Does anyone else have anything to add? 188.8.131.52 20:29, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
I think the curse kills fast given Belabitch's death, also he got pushed through the Veil, that may have been an instant death for anyone going through it.--WarGrowlmon18 21:07, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
Also, Seth, as Harry is directly asking if it was physically painfull it's pretty obvious that Sirius was describing the actuall sensation of dying. If there is a possibillity that the veil caused his death, then the entire premise of this curse being "lethal" is false. 184.108.40.206 20:31, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
There was a test screening for DH, and I think it was confirmed that Moly uses Avada Kedavra. I can´t find a link, however. Can anyone heLp me?--Rodolphus 15:37, April 4, 2011 (UTC)
I propose that we change this to "Unidentified lethal curses" (note the plural), which leaves room in case Molly and Bellatrix used different unidentified curses on their victims. We also incorporate into the article sections on Antonin Dolohov's curse and any other curse we think may result in someone's death other than the Killing Curse. Tell me what you think? --JKoch(Owl Me!) 22:24, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
In general I like the idea, this way we can cut back having half a dozen articles on unidentified curses that can cause death. As far as Sirius's death goes, part of the problem is the vagueness with which JKR writes, as she doesn't come out and specifically say what killed him, it leaves it open for interpretation. No matter what we do there are still going to be people convinced it was the veil that killed him and had nothing to do with the curse, and some that are convinced it was Avada Kedavra. Short of asking JKR herself, I'm not sure what to do canon wise with this situation. --BachLynn(Accio!) 22:49, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
Dolohov's curse is distinct, seperate, and unique so merging it would be innapropriate. I've already demonsrated beyond all reasonable doubt that Avada Kedavra was used to kill Sirius. I'm not saying this was Rowling's intentions (there are lots of things that we consider canon that she probably never dreamed of. Alas, the Millenium Bridge) However the way she has written the scene is too vague for us to discern which curse killed him. Therfore we look to the next tier of canon - the film. If you'd just read the canon policy yourself, and attempt to comprehend it you would know this. 220.127.116.11 10:11, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
I didn't expect to merge it, but to mention it with the others, as there is distinct information on Dolohov's curse, of course it will keep its own page, but it is an "unidentified lethal curse." Also, if she had intended to kill, Sirius with the Killing Curse, she would have. Also, from his lessons with Moody/Crouch Harry would have know not to expect to see Sirius again. There would have been the "sound of rushing death." If JKR had intended to kill Sirius with the Killing Curse, there would be no debate over it, there would be clear signs (ie actually having Bellatrix shout "Avada Kedavra" in the text). --JKoch(Owl Me!) 13:38, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
I've already explained this several times. There are tons of things this wiki considers canon that Rowling probably doesn't. However, by being vague and not stating which curse was used to kill Sirius she opens up the door to the films, which fill the gaps. There is nothing, I repeat nothing within the text that rules out Avada Kedavra as the fatal curse. Therfore, in the eyes of this wiki, it is canon. This is the most basic and fundemental principal of the wiki, and I'm shocked that you, as an administrator of this site do not understand it, despite the fact that I've explained it to you. Also, Bellatrix is known to use Avada Kedavra non-verbally, as she did with the fox. Therefore Harry may not have known which curse she used. Ive explained that before already. Anything else you'd like me to repeat. 18.104.22.168 14:40, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
This article still cannot be deleted, because we still do not know how Molly killed Bellatrix. I find it highly unlikely that she would have used the Killing Curse. Therefore there is still some unknown curse which killed Bellatrix, ergo this article needs to remain. --JKoch(Owl Me!) 18:27, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
"Therefore Harry may not have known which curse she used." After having seen it demonstrated in front of him by "Moody" in the previous year, along with detailed descriptions of its effects? After having watched Cedric Diggory murdered by it, an event he was replaying in his nightmares all summer long?
Consider these, direct from the book, which pretty well establish that whatever killed Sirius was NOT Avada Kedavra:
"His eyes widened in shock" (after being hit).
"Sirius had only just fallen through the archway, he would reappear from the other side any second" (again, Harry knows what the Killing Curse does at this point.)
"(Harry) Get him, save him, he's only just gone through! (Lupin) It's too late, Harry -" (Saying "it's too late" would imply that there would have been a chance to save him, but it's already stated there is no counterspell to or recovery from the Killing Curse. It wouldn't be "it's too late", it's be "it's no use".)
"But some part of him realized, even as he fought to break free from Lupin, that Sirius had never kept him waiting before... Sirius had risked everything, always to see Harry, to help him... If Sirius was not reappearing out of that archway when Harry was yelling for him as if his life depended on it, th eonly possible explanation was that he could not come back... That he really was..." (THIS is what finally forces Harry to accept that Sirius is dead, not anything to do with the effects or finality of the Killing Curse, which again he has been fully aware of since GoF, but the simple fact that, for some reason Harry can't explain, Sirius hasn't come back.)
I've already explained the above points very clearly, if you'd bothered to read my full post. I'll repeat myself ... again.
There is no concreate piece of text which says Avada Kedavra kills instantly (please read my above comments before responding).
Bellatrix casts the curse non-verbally. Therefore Harry could not have known which spell she used, and there are other spells which create green light. Remember that Sirius fell through the veil, he did not drop dead on the floor. As, such, Harry would not have known the effects of the curse had on Sirius.
Harry was grieving for crying outloud, he knew Sirius was dead, he just did not want to admit it to himself. Remeber in Philosopher's Stone after seeing his parents in the mirror he is convinced that some form of magic could bring them back. It took Dumbledore to explain that this was not the case.
I'm finding it extremly tedious having to repeat myself every time someone posts on this discussion. So, again, please read the whole conversation before responding with something along the lines of Well, his eyes bulged, so it could'nt have been Avada Kedavra. And Hcoknhoj, there is no more evedince to suggest Bellatrix was killed with a different curse than there is Sirius. 22.214.171.124 21:00, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
That's your opinion. As there are multiple spells which produce green light, and Bellatrix did not scream the incantation, how is Harry supposed to know what she used? Actually, no, don't answear that. You'll only repeat yourself, and then I'll have to repeat myself, and so on. God, this is tiresome. The bottom line is - this article is overbearing fanon, and needs to be deleted. 126.96.36.199 21:17, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
"There is no concreate piece of text which says Avada Kedavra kills instantly " - "Instantaneously the spider rolled over onto it's back, unmarked, but unmistakanly dead" (GOF p.216)
"Therefore Harry could not have known which spell she used" - That's like saying someone wouldn't recognize the sound of a gunshot, after having attended classes on firearms the year before AND watching someone getting blown away right in front of them. And I repeat, he learned about this curse in his 4th year, he watched Cedric murdered before his eyes, and in his 3rd year the effect that Dementors had on him was forcing to relive his mother's death by this curse. Any argument that he can't recognize that green flash, rushing sound, and drop-dead effect by now is fallacious.
"he knew Sirius was dead, he just did not want to admit it to himself." - And yet, as I already mentioned, the realization and acceptance moments later that he was dead had nothing to do with the stated effects or attributes of the Killing Curse. Reread the paragraph from my previous post.
Personally, I think it was passing through the veil itself that killed Sirius, rather than the spell he was hit with, but that's my opinion. However, I do think there is enough evidence within the text to say that whatever it was that finally did him in, it was NOT the Killing Curse.
Aaarggg!!! I've already mentioned the spider. The text says it rolled onto it's back instantaneously, not that it died instantaneously. Sirius did not "drop dead", he was pushed through the veil by whatever curse Bellatrix used. If you watch a loved one shot are you going to be wondering Hmmm was that an automatic or a revolver. No, your mind goes blank, and you will conjure up whatever fantasy your mind allows in order to beleve your loved one is still alive. All the evidence you have presented is circumstantial and overeaching, and more importantly based on your opinion. You have not presented anything new, you have just rehashed the same arguments that I have already dissproved about a million times. If you are not going to present any new evidence, please don't bother responding. 188.8.131.52 21:46, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
"All the evidence you have presnted is circumstantial and overeaching, and more importantly based on your opinion." - The majority of your own argument, particularly regarding Harry not recognizing the spell, is no less "circumstantial", "overreaching", or "opinionated".
"You have not presented anything new" - Ditto.
"the same arguments that I have already dissproved about a million times." - Just because you think you "disproved" them doesn't mean you have.
I've been forced to repeat myself multiple times because certain individuals refuse to read the entire conversation before posting. The difference is the canon policy of this site supports my arguments. I have very clearly explained why Avada Kedavra could have been used to kill Sirius. The book, unfortunately does not reveal which spell Bellatrix used, so we are forced by the policy of this site to use the next tier of canon - the film. If I have to repeat myself one time I'm going to scream. 184.108.40.206 22:03, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
I think we can be sure that Avada Kedavra kills instantly. It's all over the series: Frank Bryce, who "was dead before he hit the floor"; Fawkes during the duel in the Ministry of Magic Atrium, who burst into flames instantly; Charity Burbage, who fell to the table below her immediately after being cursed; Hedwig, who "fell to the floor of the cage"; the goblin Voldemort killed, who "rolled over dead"; and even Voldemort, whose face was already "vacant and unknowing" when he hit the Great Hall floor. In every instance of Avada Kedavra, the victim drops dead immediately. Sirius, on the other hand, took forever to fall, giving time for Harry to run across the room towards him before he fell (with a characteristic facial expression, not with the "vacancy and unknowness" of a victim of Avada Kedavra, I might add). -- Seth Cooperowl post! 22:09, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
It seemed to take Sirius an age to fall. I don't doubt that the curse kills extremely quickly. However, there is no proof that the victim dies the very second the curse touches them. In fact this is definately not the case, as the Riddles had expressions of terror on their faces. Therefore Sirius's eyes bulging is well within the known symptoms of Avada Kedavra. Not that this wasn't a ridiculously circumstantial argument to begin with. 220.127.116.11 22:19, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
"as the Riddles had expressions of terror on their faces" - May also have been due to the presence of the evil, mercilesss, psychopathic wizard intent on killing them rather than the actual curse.
You're right about one thing though, this discussion is going in circles. The talk page is now 10 times longer than the article itself. 18.104.22.168 22:29, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
Remember Voldemort was sixteen at the time. I doubt a sixteen year old could inspire such terror in three full grown adults. It was most definately the curse that caused this. Your right, this is stupid. At the end of the day we have a canon policy for a reason, to plug any holes the books leave. We may not like it, and it may not have been Rowling's intentions, but it is what it is. I'm going to alter the relevant articles, and consequences be damned. 22.214.171.124 22:35, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
Still, we have to reach a conclusion or your edits will be reverted anyways (this reminds me of the debate we had whether the Millennium Bridge collapse was canon or not). Again, I think Sirius's death isn't consistent with the other Avada Kedavra deaths. Granted; the narrator says Sirius seemed to have taken an age to fall through the Veil, but he did took some time to actually start falling: from the book, we know Harry had time to jump down all the stone steps between him and the dais and he still managed to see Sirius fall close enough to check his facial expression. Voldemort, on the other hand, took as much time to drop dead as the time the Elder Wand took to fly towards Harry's hand. And let's not even mention Bryce, who died before even touching the ground. -- Seth Cooperowl post! 22:41, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
"I doubt a sixteen year old could inspire such terror in three full grown adults. It was most definately the curse that caused this." - Overreaching? Circumstantial? Opinion? It isn't stated whether Riddle simply walked into the room and slew them all immediately, or whether he wrung some information out of them first. In COS, the Diary Horcrux's incarnation of the 16-year old Riddle makes some comments about his mother and father's relationship that might indicate the latter. 126.96.36.199 22:47, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
I can't, I can't discuss this anymore. It's driving me insane. What else is there to cover? I know i've used the "being shot" analogy before, but I will do so again for simplicity's sake. If you are shot in the head you may well stay standing for several seconds before toppling, but you will most certainately be dead. Extremely fast is not the same as instant. 188.8.131.52
The actual sensation of being hit by the Avada Kedavra curse is felt for the first time ever by Harry in Deathly Hallows, in which he descibes it as feeling as though he's been hit by an "iron-clad punch":
"Every inch of him ached, and the place where the Killing Curse had hit him felt like the bruise of an iron-clad punch."
—Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Chapter Thirty-Six (The Flaw in the Plan)
The thing is; the force of such a strong "punch" would most assuredly push a dead body (or make it bend over forwards, or whatnot) instantly, not taking as much time to topple as Sirius did. -- Seth Cooperowl post! 20:07, December 10, 2010 (UTC)
Firstly, Harry said it felt like an iron-clad punch, not that he was punched with an iron-clad fist. Secondly, Sirius wasn't described as toppling. Rowling used the words sank and fell to describe his descent into the veil. Thirdly, you cannot take an indefinative statement like the one about the iron-clad punch and apply it to every case in the books. Previous victims of the curse was said to have dropped, rolled over, fallen, toppled, and, in the case of Voldemort fell backwards. The same goes for the curse killing instantly. Yes, the spider rolled onto it's back instantly, but there is nothing in any of the books that definatively states that the curse kills instantly. I think we can all agree that Avada Kedavra kills it's victims extremely quickly. Maybe instantly, maybe within seconds, maybe less. But that's more than enough time for Sirius's eyes to have bulged, and for his dead or dying body to sink into the veil. The truth is you argument is compiled of "maybe's" and "probably's". There is nothing in canon to back up the existence of this spell, and I believe you are attempting to glean meaning for pieces of text where there is none, and blow them out of proportion to suit your argument. Another good example of inconsistent spell effects would be Expelliarmus! Sometimes the victim is thrown backwards, othertimes they are simply robbed of their wand. I hope we can lay all this tomfoolery to rest, once, and for all, and move on. 184.108.40.206 11:44, December 11, 2010 (UTC)
I support Hcoknhoj's proposal to rework the article into "Curses". I also think that this is an issue that will not be settled definitively by anything less than Word-of-Rowling, but that there is enough evidence within the book canon to justify keeping the article for the time being. - Nick O'Demus 12:43, December 11, 2010 (UTC)
Please explain what this evidence is? That which has not already been discussed, that is. 220.127.116.11 12:45, December 11, 2010 (UTC)
See any number of the above paragraphs. Furthermore, while the exact cause of death may not have been solidly determined, as has already been stated, there is enough evidence to support the argument that whatever it was that killed Sirius was notAvada Kedavra. Therefore this still creates a contradiction between book canon and film canon, and so the Canon policy still applies. - Nick O'Demus 12:50, December 11, 2010 (UTC)
You are not listening. All that has been said is a repeated mumbling of his eyes bulged, and it took him a few seconds to fall through the veil. I have countered every argument, and have provided concreate pieces of text from the books, and this site's own canon policy. Please read the entire conversation, starting with the section entitled "Molly". 18.104.22.168 12:57, December 11, 2010 (UTC)
I have. And while you have offered some good support for your case, your argument has not been as concrete as you seem to believe. You have offered valid reasoning for your case, and others have done the same in equal measure. This is a deadlocked argument which, as I have said, is not likely to be definitively settled by anything less than JKR herself. However, for the time being, there is enough support to justify keeping this article. - Nick O'Demus 13:04, December 11, 2010 (UTC)
I feel kind of sheepish about all this, as this article is my brain child. Bear with me while I explain a few things. This article originated with a dispute concerning our canon policy, with specific focus on Sirius's death at the hands of Bellatrix. It was agreed that as the film contradicted the book, the Killing Curse could not have been responsible for Sirius's death, and therefore, it must have been another spell. Then the conversation delved into whether or not it was the spell itself, or the veil that killed him. This is where things get a bit murky. We agreed that as Sirius was described as sinking into the veil he must have already been dead or dying. Alas, the "unidentified lethal curse" was born. As for the article itself, I admit, I am largely at fault here, and so, I apologize. The cardiac arrest thing was a natural assumption based on the fact that Sirius and Bellatrix were both struck in the heart. I haven’t played the video game myself; I merely looked up that clip on Youtube, and cropped out the image of the spell. Looking back on it now, it does seem a bit hasty. Let's re-examine all the evidence from scratch. Hopefully we will reach a conclusion. As I see it the points that need to be covered are as follows.
Q 1 - Is the fact that Sirius's eyes "bulged" relevant?
Q 2 - Is the length of time Sirius took to fall through the veil relevant?
Q 3 - Is the fact that Harry hoped Sirius would re-emerge relevant?
Q 4 - Did Rowling describe the curse as a jet of red light?
A 1 - No, I do not believe so. Anything that feels like an "iron-clad" punch will evoke some reaction.
A 2 - Again, no. As the anon has pointed out there is no definitive piece of text which claims the curse kills instantly. Furthermore we do not know if Sirius was already dead when he fell through the veil.
A 3 - No. As Harry was focused on Sirius's facial expression the suggestion that he would make a mental note of which curse Bellatrix used is far-fetched to say the least.
A 4 - No. She described Bellatrix's first curse as a jet of red light. The second one remains colourless.
Having thoroughly cross-examined all the evidence I have to say that I agree with the article's deletion. There is nothing that conclusively rules out Avada Kedavra as the cause of Sirius's death. Which means that the film ‘‘is’’ an eligible canon tier. I also think that the anon has made a very good point about taking things out of context, and using them to support an argument when in fact they do not. I don’t think I’ve missed anything, but if I have feel free to add it on. Jayden Matthews 14:44, December 11, 2010 (UTC)
Well, honestly, Jayden's opinion carries a lot weight, but isn't there still enough ambiguity, especially since we do not know how Molly killed Bellatrix. --JKoch(Owl Me!) 16:44, December 11, 2010 (UTC)
Thank you Hcoknhoj. But I feel the same arguments that apply to Sirius apply to Bellatrix. Her eyes seemed to bulge, and she fell after the tiniest space of time. I think the best thing to do would be to delete the article for the time being, and wait until Part 2 is realeased. If the film reveals her to have been killed with a curse other than AK then the article can be recreated. Jayden Matthews 16:57, December 11, 2010 (UTC)
- Not sure if this is a dead issue or not (the last few comments seem to indicate the article should at least be modified), but I'm on the side of "we just don't know." Despite the arguments, it is not definitive either way (whether it was Avada Kedavra or not that killed Sirius). At best, circumstantial evidence (Sirius' eyes widening coupled with the unproven assertion that AK kills instantly and thus does not allow for that to occur) was offered that it must be an unknown curse. But it's FAR from definitive. I would suggest leaving the article but modifying it to leave room for the possibility that it could have been AK (it already suggests that 'cardiac arrest' may have been the COD even though that's not remotely mentioned anywhere in the texts, and should probably be removed as well). Right now, the article specifically states that the curse that killed Sirius was NOT AK and, to put it bluntly, that's not known and certainly not canonical. Stevehim 05:43, January 19, 2011 (UTC)
- Is there any reason we can't (and shouldn't) add the possibility that it was Avada Kedavra to the Behind the Scenes section, and alter the article to not prclude that possibility? I'll wait a few days for comments before actually editing the (or any) page. Stevehim 00:54, January 20, 2011 (UTC)
To be honest, the only reason this article exists is because it was commonly beleived that Avada Kedavra couldn't have killed Sirius. As you rightly pointed out, this isn't the case. I think adding information to this article saying that Avada Kedavra could have killed sirius would be self contradicting, and would undermine the purpose of the article. I think the best thing to do is be completely honest. We don't know how Sirius died, and we should say that, which would mean deleting this article completely. Jayden Matthews 11:31, January 20, 2011 (UTC)
- I know I'm new here, but just to confirm, couldn't we put this curse as a possible use of Stupefy Duo? For example, I read earlier in this "talk" that you were debating if the curse was red or orange, on Stupefy Duo's article, it says that it is either orange or red. This spell may be a combination of the Stunning Spell and another curse. I've been reading the article of the lethal curse, and I find it hard to understand. First of all, we don't know whether or not the spell that Molly and Bellatrix used were the same, correct? But if it is, it could be how powerful the wizard is. When Bellatrix shot this spell at Sirius, she was eager to kill Sirius; while Molly was also trying to kill Bellatrix for teasing her and her family, but in this case, she was also trying to protect herself. Doesn't this prove that this spell may just be a variation of a moderate spell? It could have been the Stunning spell, used very forcefully. Now onto if the spell wasn't the same in the two known uses. In the 5th book, it says that Bellatrix hit Sirius on the arm, while Molly hit Bellatrix on the chest, correct? It could be that Bellatrix used a variation of the Killing Curse, while Molly used a forceful, moderate curse on Bellatrix used to forcefully, right? Please answer, please and thank you, 22.214.171.124 21:03, June 21, 2011 (UTC)Dement0r
Hi. I may seem new here, but I've actually been viewing events around this wiki for quite some time. Anyways, it seems that the discussion about whether Sirius was killed by AK has been settled, so shouldn't this article be deleted? Mr. Anon 19:02, May 6, 2011 (UTC)
Now that the trailer for Deathly Hallows, Part 2 has shown Molly using Avada Kedavra, can we please delete this article?
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this page.